Rochelle Nguyen
Niall: [00:00:00] What is it about Vietnam that keeps you here?
What do you like about it the
Rochelle: I love the
vibrancy and almost how chaotic it is,
but you still get the best of both worlds. So that’s why I said like you get the Western comforts living in Thao Dien, but you can still go and like sit on the street and do anything. And regardless of where you are in Saigon, you can always find something to do depending on your mood.
You just go look online, find a different event, different group of people, different vibe. It’s just always alive. It’s just a big city. That’s why I think I love it. Whereas Vancouver is much more calm, chill, relaxing. Lululemon.
Niall: Welcome to a Vietnam podcast with me, your host, Niall Mackay. I first came to Vietnam in
Rochelle: in 2015
Niall: 2015 for a vacation, was here for two weeks, went back home and could not wait to come back. Came back a year later for just six weeks and basically never left. In 2019, I started this podcast, a Vietnam podcast, because I was bored one day and just for a bit of fun, because I love podcasts, Little did I know [00:01:00] that five and a half years later I would still be in Saigon.
This would be an award winning podcast. We recently won the best interview podcast in all of Asia, which is absolutely incredible. And I now run Seven Million Bikes podcast where we make podcasts for other people. So all of that is just absolutely mind blowing to be perfectly honest. Now, my guest today, I am really, really excited to share with you.
So I first messaged her in 2021.
Rochelle: 2020.
Niall: asking to be on this podcast and she said no. She is Vietnamese Canadian, she runs two bars, she owns two of my favorite cocktail bars here in Saigon, 86 Proof, which a lot of you may know, which we are here right now, and a newer one, Mami Cocktails as well. And despite owning two cocktail bars, she cannot make a cocktail herself.
So I’m really, really excited to introduce my guest today, Rochelle Nguyen. Well,
Rochelle: a very nice Canadian. No [00:02:00]
Niall: actually, let’s hear the text that I sent. So we looked it up earlier. So it was February, was it? You said 2021?
Rochelle: February 2021 you were very nice about it, let’s see
Niall: And you’re not the only person that said no, so don’t worry.
Rochelle: Okay, that makes me feel
Niall: But not many.
Rochelle: yeah, here’s a text right here
Niall: Oh, it’s bigger than I thought. Oh, it’s
Rochelle: Yeah, it was very long very very
Niall: did I say? I don’t even remember. I just remember you said
Rochelle: you said Hey Rochelle, we’ve never met before, but you’ve helped online finding bar stools for my balcony.
Smiley face. I’m a big fan of 86 proof.
Niall: Yourself, and
Rochelle: And then you just pitch yourself and asked me
Niall: said no. I said,
uh, I’ve seen a couple of your stand
Rochelle: I said, uh, thanks for reaching out. Sorry for such a slow reply. I think I might’ve seen a couple of your standup shows with JK back then. Podcast looks great, but I’m not really that comfortable in front of a micro camera.
Sorry.
Niall: at uh,
Nike.
Rochelle: again. [00:03:00] I mean, you’ve been asking, Misha’s been asking, might as well now. I did the short interview at the dot magazine, so that was three
minutes. This one should be better. We’ll see. very
Niall: thank you very much for coming on. So as I mentioned all those years ago, 86 proof has been one of my favorites. Uh, it still is. We’re here right now. One of my favorite things is sitting on the balcony right there and just watching people go by. It’s a rare thing that you sit here in Taoudian and don’t see somebody go by that, you know, which is always quite fun.
And just before we started, I took off my glasses and it was quite funny. The last time I was here, somebody went by that I knew and I hadn’t seen for a while and I waved and they looked at me and nibbled it. Like, I could see them and be like, who the fuck is that? And they actually came all the way in, which was really nice, and it wasn’t until she got really close to me.
She’s like, oh, Niall, I didn’t recognize you without your glasses on. I was like, yeah, sorry, I forget. And somebody else said the other day, I think I do look quite different. Yeah. Well, I saw this meme recently of, um, Zooey Deschanel without bangs [00:04:00] or glasses. And it said, I now understand why people got Clark Kent and Superman, why they really, how they didn’t know that that was two different people, because to me that’s not Zooey Dish, you know? I’ll take
Rochelle: Yeah. But I granted, if you told me that my voice was going to sound like this, or like an audio, I would have said yes a long time ago.
Niall: You’re going to be wanting to do this
Rochelle: Yeah. I like the sound of my own voice now.
Niall: It’s amazing, right? I know I’m a very strange person. I do like the sound of my own voice. It’s, but I think because I’ve heard it so much, I’m, I’m used
Rochelle: Have you done the whole
Niall: done the
Rochelle: thing?
Niall: No, but I think I should, I
Rochelle: Yeah, I think it
worked. Dude, just
Niall: just the
whole episode. In ASMR, that’s pretty good. No, so tell me why somebody who doesn’t make cocktails opened one
Rochelle: cocktail
bar
in two. Well,
I would say back then, like this would’ve been five years ago. Back then on swung te, there wasn’t really any cocktail bars. We had Aper, TiVo, which was kind of like the gin spot. We had the original PE that was that tiny little shop front [00:05:00] and then beer craft, that’s it.
So we didn’t really have any cocktail bars outside of having like Buddha Bar and like D two Sports Pub, so that were the institutions of tine. So at that point, that’s when I met Jason. He had the Poky shop. He was opening that up and we decided he was like, Hey, Rochelle, you’ve always had like an entrepreneurial spirit.
You’ve always wanted to do something. Why don’t you open up a cocktail bar instead of taking your masters? So I thought it was like, Hey, that’s a good idea. So then, um, a location opened right up next to Ono Poky. So Ono Poky was 94 Sung Tui and the original 86 proof was at 98. So then I reached out to the landlord, did all the numbers, and I called up my dad and I was like, Hey dad, so, I think I know what I want to do here.
Are you okay with, uh, like, giving up my plans of doing my master’s next year? And I think I’m going to open up a cocktail bar. The first question he asked
was,
Niall: business was gonna close, or if[00:06:00]
Rochelle: a pretty quick, I didn’t know what I was doing. Yeah, that was his main concern. Not about if the business was going to be successful, my experience, or if I had any business opening up a cocktail bar, but is your liver going to be okay, honey?
Niall: And how’s your liver doing?
Rochelle: It’s good. Surprisingly, I drank a lot before I opened up a bar. Once I opened up 86 proof, I barely drank. Yeah. You ask the staff. They’re like, she drinks maybe once a month outside of tasting their cocktails.
Niall: that makes sense though because of that thing for drug dealers, right? Like you don’t use you you don’t do your own stash, right? Like I’ve heard this from movies now Not that I’m a drug dealer at all. I’ve never dealt drugs
I’m not even kidding. I’ve never dealt drugs, but I’ve heard that’s true, right?
So it makes sense as a bar owner that if you’re just getting smashed all the time in your own bar It’s not a good look
Rochelle: yeah. But I think
Niall: either My thing
Rochelle: easier in the sense that back then, drinking was like, relaxing now. If I want to drink, I’ll be away. Or now because I know alcohol a lot more, I’m a little bit of a bougie bitch.
Niall: you
Rochelle: longer just looking for the cheapest shit anymore. [00:07:00] Which was high school days, university days. We
drank early
Niall: Long Island’s five different places.
Exactly. I’m assuming Long
Rochelle: exactly. Yeah. Yeah. A Long Island was fancy. It’s like, Ooh, I mean, Long Island’s five different types of spirits. That’s fancy. Exactly. I’m assuming Long Islanders actually. I’m not, I actually don’t know the history.
Niall: Let’s go look it up and we’ll find out. Yeah, so tell me a bit about your background growing up in Canada
Rochelle: Uh, so my parents were also similar to a lot of Vietnamese people here. They were immigrants. They came over right before, right after the eighties on a boat and when they were teenagers. Uh, so my parents were actually, um, high school sweethearts and they broke up because they knew that they were going to be going abroad and they didn’t know what country they’d end up in.
And then somehow magically they ended up on the same boat, [00:08:00] unplanned. My dad was on the second floor, my mom was on the first floor, and after the second night of just pitch black ocean, they heard each other’s voices. So even when I hear this story, it just sounds like straight out of a movie or a rom com, but not romantic comedy, because this is depressing.
Yeah, war is not happy.
Niall: Yeah, that’s incredible though So when you say they were on a boat because I’ve interviewed lots of people who’ve whose parents were Vietnamese boat people was it like a cruise liner or they were on like a boat boat
Rochelle: It’s just a random boat, so you have to escape in the middle of the night usually, so you, uh, back then they would kind of pay someone in just gold to hide them out and sneak them onto a boat, so that way they could leave Vietnam, and usually they’d either end up in the Philippines or Malaysia, so it’d usually be between two to three nights on the boat, pure black, because you can’t turn on any lights, or else pirates would get you, or if the government would get you too.
Yeah. So then, uh, they made it to Malaysia, and they were there for about six months before Canada took them. Yeah, so that’s how they ended up in Canada and they made me my [00:09:00] sister about 10 15 years later
Niall: So do they tell you much about what life was like before they left
Rochelle: They do but they’re not as Not as many stories that I as I would like I can only get stories from them when they’re with their families and they’re kind Of reminiscing and over a couple drinks other than that I don’t think they like talking about it much because I think they saw quite a lot of things that they would rather just bury
Yeah, so Oh, I know there were a lot of people dying, like, unfortunately, uh, and then a lot of starvation.
I mean, my mom, when she left Vietnam, she would have been about 140 pounds and she’s five, five, three. So she’s a small woman, but she was, she had meat on her bones. And then by the time she got to Canada, she was 90 pounds.
Niall: I’m trying to do the maths and kilograms at the
Rochelle: Yeah. So
she lost about 20, 25 kilos in the span of six months. Just from like, the stress, the anxiousness, and just from the lack of food as [00:10:00] well. Uh,
Niall: they got onto a boat
Rochelle: so usually, I know from what they told me, once you get there, there would be kind of a refugee camp that they take you in. And then you just kind of, all, all the Vietnamese people would just kind of band together and support each other, and they would help each other out.
And then you’re, you have to line up at an office to just basically get your name into a country. So they’ll look whether or not, like, your age, your family, if you have any health conditions. And then countries will basically be like, they’ll offer or not really a bid, but they can say like, Hey, you can come here.
So for example, my mom had 12 siblings. So grandma was
Niall: Well, yeah, yeah. That’s, I was thinking like, do the math. Nine times 12, that’s 107 months pregnant,
right?
Rochelle: Yeah. It’s pretty much you pop
out
one baby
Niall: 11 years.
Rochelle: frisky. You put in another one. Yeah. So, um, with my parents, I think eight of them were able [00:11:00] to leave Vietnam for my mom’s side. So some of them ended up in Germany, in France, Australia, the US, just whichever country would take you at that point.
You weren’t picky, just whatever country would open your doors. You’d be like, okay. So my parents were either deciding between Germany and Canada and Germany looked colder in December at that point.
Niall: That’s what it came down
to.
Rochelle: Yeah. Yeah. So what did they do
Niall: they got to Canada?
Rochelle: Um, so at that point, churches took them in because I know, um, at that point, Canada would match one to one donations.
So if the church would give an X amount, the government would give back as well. So that’s what my parents basically changed their name so they could get free meals in churches.
Niall: Change their names? Like, what do you
Rochelle: So, um, their names are Hong and Van, which is quite easy to say if you just, even if you say it in English, but they
Niall: I
Rochelle: a little bit more because my parents would do [00:12:00] anything for a free meal or for a discount.
Niall: mean, I would do anything
Rochelle: Yeah. So then, uh, they were settled in Calgary at first.
Niall: And how do you know how they dealt with the weather? Because I’m assuming all I know from Calgary is I think, uh, cool runnings was set there, right? There was the winter Olympics
Rochelle: cold. It’s cold.
Niall: they deal with that? Do you know? I mean, itwas
Rochelle: it was so new to them and at that point they were 18 years old. So it was just an adventure. Yeah. And that’s why they’ve pretty much done everything at that age. They just want to experience life. They would, any job they could take. So it’s usually at that point, I know a lot of people who came over from the boat, they would either work in like a kitchen, washing dishes, or a lot of airport jobs.
Rochelle: do for
work What did they say? So what did they do for work?
Niall: stereotypes, but they’re generally quite true, aren’t they?
Rochelle: I don’t remember if
it was a three or a six month program, but I just remember my dad saying that, um, someone else in the [00:13:00] school, they would help him with the English and he would
Niall: look, I’m not, I’m not
Rochelle: as true stereotypes, Asians in the math. There are so many stereotypes of the gender difference. Yeah. How did you do math? I mean, not as good as compared to the standard Asian. So, in high school, I went with an all Asian school, like 90 percent Asian. So, my math was terrible. It’s shitty compared to them.
But then in uni, I was in marketing, so it was all, like, all white people. I was brilliant in math. I’m like, I went home, I brought home a 92 on my test, and I’m like, hey, mom, dad, look, I’m
Niall: I’m Asiannow. Somebody told me that years ago. I remember they were like, I’m good at math, but bad for an Asian. Which means you’re better than most people, right?
Still.
Rochelle: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I studied, first year I studied engineering, uh, because both my,
Niall: only female then in your class. And
Rochelle: yeah,
Niall: that only Asian female.
Rochelle: pretty much, yeah.
Uh, cause my [00:14:00] sister is an electrical engineer by trade and also my dad was a computer engineer. So I was just like, I didn’t know what to do after high school. Everyone told me that engineering was not for me, but I was like, that’s the only option. So that’s what I signed up for. Bad idea. One semester, and I was like, yeah, this
was yeah. One semester, and then I had to redo all of my credits, so that way I could get into marketing or business. So that was a little bit of an adjustment, and then I finished Marketing Communications and my BA, and then I started working in advertising agencies.
Niall: Is
Canada similar to the US? Because I know in the UK, like when I went to university, we apply for a specific course. Like I applied to physiotherapy, I applied to sports science, but in the US
Rochelle: you apply to like a school, Yeah, I think different but What’s that like in Canada? In Canada? So every university will have a different specialization. So like for example, if you go to, uh, Toronto, their, um, I think their sciences are really good. [00:15:00] And then every year there’s a different ranking on if you would go to Montreal for McGill, ut or uh, UBC, where I’m from.
So depending on what you wanna be, you would apply for that school and then have backup plans. So when you change your degree, you don’t change? What do you think about, maybe if you had friends, I used to live in New Orleans, in the Northeast, and they
Niall: things I love about Canadian universities or Canada in general, the difference between Canada and America is that you can drink at 18 in Canada, like most normal countries. And I had friends, I used to live in Rhode Island in the Northeast and they would go up to like McGill or they would go over the border cause they were like 18, 19, just to go party and drink in Canada. It’s so weird to think that you wouldn’t, like, you would never [00:16:00] do the reverse, right? If you were 18, 19, you wouldn’t be like, let’s go party! And I’m like, oh wait, no, we can’t drink in America.
Rochelle: Yeah, I mean, 18, but then in my school I started drinking early. So when I look at my nieces and nephews now, I’m like, Ooh, please do not be me. I started drinking at grade eight. So right when I turned 14
Niall: Shit, that’s
Rochelle: and that was not just like a casual beer with the family or casual wine that was getting me. Drunk on Jagermeister and vodka to the point where I cannot, Jagermeister is not allowed in 86 proof anymore
Niall: I don’t think Jägermeister should be allowed in any bar. Is that your, is that your drink of, I was going to say not of choice, what’s the opposite of your drink of choice would be Jägermeister?
Rochelle: I think well when in high school, it would be a lot of Smirnoff Ices and Then there was something called a sourpuss. It was like a cat. It was like super sour You would mix it with vodka and it’s basically like a grapefruit girly shot that’s easy to drink but gets you plastered because there’s so much sugar in it.
So that was high school.
Niall: But what drink is it vodka orange? Sorry, what did you say? Is it what drink? Jägermeister, sorry. What drink would you [00:17:00] never touch? Like it was sour puss, but you wouldn’t even get that here, right?
Rochelle: I don’t, I haven’t seen that in a long time.
Niall: go near because you got so drunk on it?
Rochelle: Like now? Uh, Jägermeister.
Niall: Yeah.
Rochelle: It’s just the burp the next day. Ooh, you can still taste it.
Niall: Mine’s vodka orange juice.
I can’t, I wouldn’t. I mean not, shoot, nobody really should be drinking vodka orange juice, but even if it ever came up, cause so I was, I think, uh. 17. And have you ever played the drinking game to Roxanne?
Yeah,
don’t ever do it. You think about the song Roxanne by the police and then the chorus just goes, Roxanne, Roxanne.
And he’s, I can’t even remember. He just says Roxanne like about 30 times back to back. And the game is you have to take a drink every time he says Roxanne. So I was like 17, didn’t really know like how to handle my drink. I was hanging out with the older boys before a football game
and I’m like, yeah,
I can drink.
And yeah.
Rochelle: Drinking along to this Rox hand.
Niall: well, drinking other stuff as well and just ended up soabsolutely wasted.
Rochelle: drinking to Roxanne? You might as well just drink. [00:18:00] That’s
Niall: I know. Yeah, I know.
It’s the stupidest drinking game I’ve ever heard. But again, you’re like 17. You’re like, yeah, I’ll do it. It’ll be fun. I don’t think I realized though until it started because it kind of like slowly builds and then it gets to the point where you’re just saying it constantly and you’re just knocking them back.
Rochelle: Yeah, But what, how did you end up drinking at quarantine?
Niall: Like, is it easy to get alcohol
Rochelle: It was easy ’cause we always just had older siblings that would be okay. And then house parties, my parents were okay with me drinking at 16. They didn’t know about 14 until recently, but at 16 they were like, we would rather you spend your money on alcohol at home than go out and like sneak in by fake id.
So then my house became the, like the resident house party in high school. So I remember, uh, graduation in grade 12, I thought it was going to be like, oh, cute little, like, 30 people after party at my house, 120 people. At that point, I looked around, I was like, okay, I’m grabbing the vodka bottle, I’m going this way guys, I’m done.
Niall: 120 people at your
Rochelle: Yeah.
Niall: you were 16?
Rochelle: This, no, this was 18 for high school. Yeah.
Niall: were okay with that?[00:19:00]
Rochelle: Yes, they were okay with it. I remember, um, they woke up at like 4am and at this point there was one of my friends. He was just passed out in front of their room, shirt off. He was done for the night. Like he was topless, like cause he threw up on himself. And then my dad looked at him, giggled, kicked him.
You’re alive. Then went to go to the washroom and went back to sleep.
Niall: house drunk, my mum would lose her shit, basically.
Rochelle: but that’s what I mean, like my parents in the
Niall: parents and their twins are really worried. Yeah. That they’re okay with, you know. It’s, it’s quite scary when you, you
know,
Rochelle: Yeah.
Niall: I mean, I was doing way worse things probably than what these little kids are doing, just walking about the street and you’re like, look at them.
And you’re like, no.
Rochelle: So my cousins, um, they have teenagers now, teenage boys. And then she always gets like, Oh, Rachelle, like you’re kind of like [00:20:00] their cool auntie. So can you just like find out like, what did like just find out? So I’m like, okay.
Niall: what did you find out?
Rochelle: Um, I
told her, I’m like, you got to check his Tik Tok. He’s looking at weird stuff, questionable
Niall: So I
Rochelle: showed it
Niall: what other people are looking at, and so you were looking at his tiktok. He showed
it to me.
Oh, he showed it to you? he showed it to me. And you’re
Rochelle: So you’ve got an
Niall: So you’ve
got an older
Rochelle: how
much
older is she? Do
Niall: would be
Rochelle: alike? My
question
Niall: do you look alike?
Rochelle: are you with your sister? No, you don’t look that
Niall: you able to use her ID when you were underage and she was old enough? No, you don’t look that similar. Uh, cause
that would have been it. Cause when you’ve got an older sibling, that’s a good way. And
you, at least you could buy you alcohol.
So I was the oldest one.
Rochelle: younger brother?
Niall: get someone.
We always had to use somebody’s older brother, like one person had an older brother and it’s like, can you ask him to buy his alcohol? [00:21:00] No way.
The best story that I’ve got about buying alcohol is
one time I, I,
I hid it somewhere before a concert, my friend and I, Martin, we’re going to go to this concert, get drunk.
and it got stolen somehow or got taken I think I hid it in a school and I think the janitor must have found it
it’s like a Sunday morning
I hid it because we’re going to the concert that night
anyway long story short the alcohol went missing
so we went to the local like bottle shop next to the bus stop they were gonna get and you know you ask no you ask us and we’re gonna ask somebody I don’t know if you do this in Canada it was a thing in Glasgow in my suburb anyway you’ll ask someone pretty much and you’re like can you go buy me some booze and I can’t ever remember I think it definitely worked.
Sometimes you’d maybe find the right person and they’d be like, yeah sure, what do you want? Like maybe cigarettes. I never smoked cigarettes, but maybe it worked more for cigarettes. But anyway,
I walked
up
to this
woman, I
can’t remember how old she was, not that
old. And I
was like, excuse me, can you buy me a drink?
Because that’s how we kind of call it in Scotland, a drink, right? She’s like, yeah, no worries, son, what do you want? And I was like, oh, jackpot, you’re a beauty. [00:22:00] I was like, can you get us two bottles of White Lightning? White Lightning’s like the cheap cider. She’s like, White Lightning?
I
thought you
meant
a
soft
drink.
I was going to buy you a Coke or
something.
Oh no, sorry missus. And what the fuck, why would I be asking you to go into the shop and buy me a coke? I could go in
Rochelle: and
do the house.
Niall: it went
from like,
Rochelle: yes
she’s
gonna
buy
it,
to
like,
so we
ended
up
Niall: to the concert sober.
Rochelle: That’s so sad. right,
but
I
still
think
back that.
yeah, I always looked a little bit older when I was growing up in Vancouver.
So every time I
Niall: bit older when I was growing up, so every time I went to it, like, I was like, sorry!
Rochelle: mean you’re not?
And he was like, okay, I’m 42 years old, but still, god damn it, I want to get ID’d. And every time I just walked out the door, I was
Niall: And
I was so offended. No, not nice. I was so offended. I was like, what do you mean you’re not ID
me? Okay, I’m [00:23:00] 42 years old, but still goddammit. I want to get ID’d and every time I just bought alcohol They were just like yep And I saw something come up recently a similar thing somebody posted about being offended that they showed their ID and they immediately just glanced At it and handed them back.
They’re like, how did you know so quickly? It’s like I saw your birthday. It was started at 19 I was like, fuck’s sake, we are in 2024 now, like, if you just look at someone’s ID and it’s 9,
done. It’s 2000
Rochelle: 25 years old,
right? Yeah. So what made you
come to Vietnam? And my dad said, Hey, why don’t you come with us? Free trip. So I was like, yeah, okay. Why not? I haven’t gone traveling with my parents in a while. Let’s do that. And, uh, so we went to Vietnam for two months at the end of the two months.
[00:24:00] I said, Hey dad, do you mind if I stay here for a bit? I kind of want to see if I like it and I’ll figure it out. And his only rule was don’t be a, a big packer. He’s like, he just said, you have to make money somehow, whether you go. get a job or you work online, you just have to make steady income. And that was his only requirement.
And I had an uncle here who also, he was a, he was Vietnamese, but he also left on a boat to Canada, but he was the first one who came back to Vietnam once Vietnam opened up their borders again. So he came here and he kind of pretty much acclimated me into being able to live in Saigon, getting the best of both worlds, like the Western comforts, but also like the vibrancy of Saigon too.
So I would say it’s because of my uncle that I’m still here.
Niall: So your family are from Saigon, a
Rochelle: Bing Hua, so like
40 minutes, basically like Saigon.
Niall: So had you come back like many times before or that trip was your first time
Rochelle: I came a lot as a kid. So my parents were lucky enough to come back here pretty much [00:25:00] every summer in elementary school. So it would be two to three months of summertime. So June, July, August in Bing Hua in the countryside, no wifi at that time, no, barely any TV. We’re still burning DVD discs. And, um, our entertainment was we could go pick out little baby ducklings and chicks from the market and that’s your pet for the summer.
Niall: I thought you were going to say that’s your food for the summer.
I mean, they
did eat my box. So it’s interesting though because I know from the many conversations I’ve had that there are some parents when they left Vietnam they never came back and when their children then wanted to come back they were like very fearful for them because of, they’d fled the country essentially.
So your parents
Rochelle: actually
quite
different, what made
them
Niall: come back quite often? They had no qualms about themselves coming back here?
Rochelle: my parents were always a little bit more risk takers. They’re still okay with it. And because that, we had my uncle, uncle Wing here,
so he’s lived here for the last 30 years after the war, and he’s, he’s doing well for himself. He loves it. [00:26:00] He’s, uh, he used to work at the, I think, the Park Hyatt back in Calgary, too.
And then when he moved here, he just loved it. And then he was the one who was able to convince everybody that, Hey, Rochelle staying here isn’t a crazy thing. She can be fine. So, I think it’s because he just kind of convinced and made everyone a little bit less worried. My dad has always been like, Go do it.
If you fail, then too bad. Whereas my mom is a little bit more worried. She’ll always be the natural worrier. Uh,
Niall: do first of all then? Not being a
Rochelle: I taught at ILA.
Niall: Right, that’s right, that’s where we both taught
Rochelle: Yeah. No, so, uh, I did the, cause you have to take that like one month, not the seltzer, but at that point there was like the tessel or the tuffle. So I did that back in Go Vap when I came here for one month, and then I got a job at ILA.
But the best part about ILA is when I applied for Rochelle Nguyen as my name, I could never get an interview. So I had to change my name to Rochelle NG. they [00:27:00] would assume that I was Chinese versus Vietnamese.
Niall: This was for
ILA? Wow. So for anyone who doesn’t know what ILA is, ILA Vietnam is one of the biggest English language schools here in Saigon. I used to work there as well in total for like most of the time I’ve been here. I only left last year, but I was part time for the last few years and it’s a reputable school and it’s really good.
But that’s interesting to hear. So again, for people
who don’t know, there is, and you can correct
me
or explain it,
there’s
a little bit
of racism here. towards Vietnamese people from Vietnamese
people because
they want their children to be taught by foreigners. They want the children. I mean, I see a lot of, you can tell me more because I’m obviously a white person, so I don’t see it as much.
So I read, I’ve read not a lot, a little bit about how they only want white people and things like this. I’ve not seen that to be true. And I am surprised that ILA, because when I first started at ILA, there was heaps of Vietcuse or Vietnamese, uh, First generation? Second generation? I always get confused with generation.
First generation? You are like first generation Vietnamese, second generation
I would be first generation Canadian. Yeah, so we’ve cut all this bit out. I’m talking nonsense here. Let me redo that. So I know when I first started, Started at ILA, there were lots of people like an American Vietnamese and he had his name on the door But I know that was some parents questioned that they were like why is our Vietnamese person teaching my children and the manager was like No, he is American.
He his parents are Vietnamese He has a Vietnamese name and I [00:28:00] always thought that ILA was pretty good like that because I know they hired lots of different people from all over the World people of color like a friend JK and so but you found out you found in the beginning They didn’t want to hire you because of your last name Yeah, that’s
Rochelle: that’s why I noticed and then I just winged it. I was like, do not
screw it. I’ll just change
my last name and see how it goes because
I
was not getting any callbacks
with when I
did
Rochelle
Niall: say Nguyen.
We’re all saying Nguyen. I know in the English
way. But when people say it They
Rochelle: Yeah.
Niall: it. It hurts my ears more than it hurts
Rochelle: Nguyen. Yeah. Well, I still say Nguyen. I grew up saying Nguyen. I know in Vietnamese is Nguyen, just like the one syllable. But when people say Nguyen, if they can’t say it, it hurts my ears more than just saying Nguyen
Niall: I love that. It hurts my ears more if you say it wrong. I could completely imagine that that’s what it’s like. A hundred percent. You [00:29:00] know, it’s
interesting because I interviewed Chris Nguyen. Is that alright? Years ago. And he, he’s English Vietnamese and he pronounced his own name Nguyen as well. His dad never corrected him.
And it wasn’t until he came back to Vietnam that they were like, that’s not how you say it. And he’s like, what do you mean this is how I say my name? You can go back and listen to the episode. And he’s like, yeah, I didn’t realize I’d been saying my own name incorrectly for years cause my parents just never corrected me.
Rochelle: my parents, they introduce themselves as Nguyen too.
They
Niall: They taught
Rochelle: of Vietnamese people. Then they’ll say Nguyen. But other than that, it’s always been Nguyen. Hung Nguyen, Van Nguyen.
Niall: how to say it,
Rochelle: Yeah, but everyone I know back in Vancouver, they will say Nguyen. Because I think in Vietnamese, there’s like the name Nguyen, Nguyen.
There’s all kind of sounds like Nguyen, Nguyen. So it’s just easier to differentiate your last name as well.
Niall: Yeah
Rochelle: in Vietnam, there’s 10 last names.
Niall: And, [00:30:00] I’m not ILA, my TAs and my teachers, I mean, I did
Rochelle: you to the situation?
Niall: some Vietnamese, so it’s just easier,
Rochelle: at ILA, my TAs, like my teacher assistants, they would tell me, uh, even if you speak Vietnamese or understand it, just pretend you don’t because parents would have a problem. ’cause the kids would be like, they’ll go home and tell the parents like so excitedly, but the parents are paying for an English speaker.
They’re worried that they’re gonna be switching to Vietnamese. So I understand that from a parent perspective, they just want the best and they can’t control what’s happening in the classroom. So it’s fair, but I mean, I did sneak in some Vietnamese to the younger kids because it’s just easier. Like when you’re teaching three, four year olds and you’re asking them if they need to go toilet, it’s just easier.
But I did one time, uh,
Niall: I
Rochelle: year old, [00:31:00] she told me in Vietnamese that she pooped herself.
I
Niall: pretended
I didn’t
I’m sorry.
Rochelle: Vietnamese.
Niall: I thought you were
Rochelle: You’re gonna say it was handy that you knew Vietnamese at that point, like the TA, or like, I don’t know, something like that. So somebody
Niall: that time. So somebody told me, uh, the
Rochelle: me, the kids can talk to them in Vietnamese, and they were like, how do I then go on
Niall: opposite, so they could speak Vietnamese. But they chose not to speak it in class because they didn’t want the kids to know that they could understand them And they didn’t want the kids to talk to them in Vietnamese because they were like if I let them know I can speak Vietnamese the kids are just gonna talk to me and she said it’s really funny because I can understand and again It was really young kids like three four years old.
She like they’re really mean to each other. Is that right?
Rochelle: Yeah. They’re mean. Sometimes they say, and you’re like, wow, where did this come from? Or I had a little girl. She’s like, she came in all sad. We’re like, what’s [00:32:00] wrong, honey. Then she turns her friend and be like, my daddy left me last night. He left me and my mom. I’m like,
21?
Niall: Shit that’s deep
Rochelle: I know a four year old.
Niall: so I mean, I think as of when I was an English teacher, obviously with the older kids it’s different, you can talk to them, but with the younger kids it’s, for me, ignorance was bliss,
for sure. did you
like teaching
with teenagers, or? Uh, I liked them both, to be honest, like I’m, I’m quite good with kids, like I’ve worked on the summer camp, I love working with children, and so I didn’t think I would like working with the teenagers, but I actually quite liked it, and I quite, the younger kids as well, I don’t know, I liked it all,
Rochelle: yeah.
Niall: But what was your biggest challenge then, moving to Vietnam? Hmm.
Rochelle: as a kid, so I think I was, there was no culture shock. I was already used to the crazy roads, to the people staring, the pointing. So it’s a little bit more natural for me, you just kind of learn to ignore. But in terms of the biggest challenge, I would say [00:33:00] was trying to find friends, because I wasn’t Vietnamese enough.
to hang out with the fully Vietnamese people. But then because in Vancouver I grew up predominantly around Asians, it was hard for me in the beginning to kind of find my, my foot as to where I belong. Cause I wasn’t Vietnamese enough to be Vietnamese, but I wasn’t white enough to hang out with the white expats here.
So it took a little bit while to just kind of explore and find the group of friends. I think that was the hardest for me.
Niall: And that’s hard even for my wife and I as well, just trying to find, when you move away from home, it’s a challenge to like find people. And the problem, have you had this as well? It’s as an expat here, it’s such a transient population, right? And it’s really, really difficult to make friends because a lot of the time they leave within a year.
I mean, we’ve had friends that left without telling us,
which is shocking, right? Yeah. They were like
good friends with us. And one day they just messaged me like, Oh yeah,
we
Rochelle: other
Niall: And it wasn’t like
something that we’d done because we had other friends
in the group.
[00:34:00] They were like, do you
know that they just left?
And
we’re like, yeah, they just messaged us, they’re like, they’ve gone.
Like, wait, what? I thought we were all friends. So that’s a bit extreme. But it’s interesting you’re saying that because I’ve just done an interview with Linda Beck, and she’s Finnish, speaks Swedish, Vietnamese, English, comes here a lot, I think, as well.
And, well, The thing that she told me that really stood out was she was seen as Asian in the West home. And she’s seen as white in Vietnam and trying to marry those two things. That sounds similar to what you’re
Rochelle: And I think with Linda, I think she looks even less Asian than I do. Like I don’t look Vietnamese, Linda looks even less Vietnamese in my opinion. So I think we share that in the sense that people don’t, people think that we’re foreigners who learned how to speak Vietnamese versus actually like partially Vietnamese or full Vietnamese in my case. It’s just trying to find the right balance, but in Saigon, everyone’s so open, so it’s still quite easy, I find.
Niall: So did you learn Vietnamese all your growing up?
Rochelle: I knew [00:35:00] grandma level Vietnamese, so whatever I could just speak to about my grandma, like, Oh, how was your day? What did you
Niall: Oh, that’s nice.
Rochelle: okay? Yeah, how are your teeth doing?
Niall: Which is something you’re never going to ask anyone else. Right.
Rochelle: Yeah.
Niall: But then now you’re quite fluent. It’s
Rochelle: I would say so, all of my staff that have known me for about like four or five years, they say my Vietnamese has improved. So that’s a good thing. And then, but I would say that conversational Vietnamese in terms of if we’re
able to like sit down and have a girl’s night in Vietnamese, I wouldn’t be able to do anything because I can’t get to that level of deep in Vietnamese.
I know contracts. I can
Niall: time to get feedback.
Rochelle: I can talk about electricity in Vietnamese, but I can’t talk about feelings in Vietnamese. Can you tell me how you made it up? Yeah, I mean, so you mentioned earlier, you know, Suggested it to you. [00:36:00] I love this one, you mentioned I’m gonna do my master’s. Why do you do different things?
One
is super risky and I would
imagine expensive. The other
is all from your work and
I hope your
master’s
Niall: to be
in marketing, I presume.
Rochelle: I don’t know, Master’s in MBA, so the Bachelor’s Administration, Business administration. Yeah, but even my professor in school told me not to do it, because I emailed him saying, Hey, uh, I need your opinion, I like you, you gave me the best advice, so tell me what to do please. And then he told me, don’t do your Master’s, wait a couple years.
And he’s like, if you have the money, do your business, uh, open up the bar, and if it doesn’t work out in a year Then close it down, don’t, don’t risk, don’t put yourself in a hole. Uh, close it down and take it as a learning lesson. Yeah.
Niall: me just check the camera and then we’ll
Rochelle: We’re pretty
much,
this
will
probably wrap
up
soon.
Niall: Uh, I’m
Rochelle: I mean, the staff are set up, so we’re good.
Niall: So, that’s
really
good advice.
And, sorry, let me just say it again.
Um,
so once you made the decision to
open 86Proof,
Rochelle: my
question, are your
bar proofs so [00:37:00] well thought of and so good as they always are?
And he was a friendly face that everyone loved, and the neighborhood, like the neighbors, all of our people who live in Taodin, truly got to know him, and I think we built that honestly around his heart and soul. And I think that’s the whole idea that we carry on now, is the fact that 86, I always call it like your neighborhood cocktail bar, or your neighborhood pub, more like, with a lot of whiskeys and cocktails.
So that’s how I would normally describe, because as you say, like, on the, when we sit on the patio, you walk by so many people that you know. One, like, if you stay here for two hours, you’re gonna, like, ten people you know are gonna walk past and say hi.
Niall: And probably walk in as
Rochelle: Yeah.
Niall: can’t come here without meeting somebody that you know.
and
Rochelle: at the forefront, then [00:38:00] I’ll keep on being the core of what we do.
Niall: the same question that I asked Jason is, makes your whiskey salad so good?
Rochelle: I mean, honestly, at the end of the day, people always ask that. And to me, it’s a whiskey sour. It’s the recipes online. You know what the clear base is. Maker’s Mark is just a good base for a whiskey sour. But I think it’s just everyone, I don’t know what it is that people love about it. I do know that we do go heavier on the bitters compared to most places.
I actually don’t know.
Niall: He was pretty similar answer as well So I haven’t really mentioned it because I don’t want to conflate the two of you But you are partners with Jason Pham who’s been on an episode recently and you’re cool Not just partners in life, partners in business as well And so
we
asked
him
the same question
and it was a similar answer, which was so disappointing because You may be able to hear that noise We are right on Zwan Twi right now, and there’s a guy gone by with a really small penis This is why I say this is why I [00:39:00] drive an electric bike, it’s silent So I’ll probably cut that bit out as well because that’s a
bit inappropriate, but
anyway
Rochelle: um,
Niall: No, he said something similar and it was so disappointing.
So, the other night, I was really lucky, Adrian and I were with James Jalokia, who’s also been on the podcast as well, and owns Brick and Barrel, and have a cocktail bar in there, and he was like, I want you guys to come over and try some cocktails. Of course we said yes. He said, I want you to see, we’re going to test the menu out, and I’ve never done anything like that before, and it was really interesting.
We actually tried three whiskey cells,
and
the difference
was how many mils of sugar they were adding. It And the first one they made, I’d never really thought about it because I was just drinking, you’re like, yeah, it tastes good. But it was like, Oh no, actually, when you think about it, it’s too sweet. No, sorry.
It wasn’t
sweet enough.
It was too like tart. Then we tried another one and this one was too sweet. And then we tried the third one and it was just right. How many mils of sugar do you put in your whiskey settles?
Rochelle: 30. Yeah. [00:40:00]
Niall: they must have something different with the balance. We ended up settling on 15. I think, if I remember correctly.
Rochelle: But I remember during the first, when we first opened up 86proof, the whiskey sour that we landed on was the 34th whiskey sour that we tested.
Niall: you see, you’re saying we don’t know why the whiskey sour is so good. It took you 34 iterations to get to the
right one.
Rochelle: tested every single bourbon, all their ryes, and we just did blind testings. And that was a pain, because we did that in one day.
Niall: Oh, what a nightmare drinking 34
whiskeys.
Rochelle: why I don’t drink anymore.
Niall: Yeah, that will do it for you. I mean, we tried three and that was like, that was enough, but there is something amazing. It’s well done on what you’ve done here. These places are amazing. Was that a big leap to go from the 20 seater to this is 120. We
Rochelle: had that little
Niall: that lotion
version
but
Rochelle: So version
one was a 20 seater. Then we took down the store to the left and that opened up to be about 40 to 60. Remember
Niall: we’re going to be able to
[00:41:00] do it. So you can just
help
Rochelle: good. And so what’s the future then for, I don’t think we’re gonna be opening up any bar soon, but we are heading in the direction of consultancy projects. Yeah. A little bit more fun, , because you can just tell people what to do. , . No,
Niall: No, I like
I do
some audits for podcasts and I give people my advice on how to make the podcast better But I’m always like do what I say not what I do because I don’t even know if I do all of this stuff that I’m telling you. I just know it’s good advice. So that’s really important. And do you think you’ll be in Vietnam for the long term?
Hmm,
I
hate that question Right
Rochelle: That’s why I’ve noticed everyone either leaves at the second year or seventh year.
Niall: Yeah, so you you’re seven and a half. We’re coming up. We’re eight and a half. So many people we know now, it’s crazy like everyone we seem to meet like how long you’ve been here They’re like eight [00:42:00] years seven years. Like it’s weird. It’s just yeah, I think if you get into you, right What is it about Vietnam that keeps you here?
What do you like about it the
Rochelle: I love the
vibrancy and almost how chaotic it is,
but you still get the best of both worlds. So that’s why I said like you get the Western comforts living in Thao Dien but you can still go and like sit on the street and do anything. And regardless of where you are in Saigon, you can always find something to do depending on your mood.
You just go look online, find a different event, different group of people, different vibe. It’s just always alive. It’s just a big city. That’s why I think I love it. Whereas Vancouver is much more calm, chill, relaxing. Lululemon. I
Niall: lululemon. Thank you so much for coming on Rochelle I’m so glad we finally managed to do this. Was it as bad as you thought?
Rochelle: my own voice. I like it now.
Niall: Yeah, you’re not going to want to take these
headphones off. Wait till you take them off, it’s a weird feeling.
Are you ready? Alright, don’t
forget
follow, subscribe, turn on [00:43:00] notifications, do all that good stuff. Go to 86proof. This guy with a small penis is just driving by again. Go to 86proof, go to Mamie, say hello to Rochelle, say hello to Jason from me. And if you like this podcast, please make sure to share it with somebody else.
Rate, review, subscribe, do everything to help me out.
This podcast
Rochelle: It’s good. It’s good. Cheers. Bye.
Niall: slash a Vietnam podcast and you can become a bops out there and maybe joining me here at 86 proof. Do you like that name? Cheers.
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