Phong Nha is one of the most stunning places I’ve visited in Vietnam, and after spending a week here, I knew I had to learn more about the people shaping its tourism industry.
I am Niall Mackay, host of A Vietnam Podcast. I had the chance to talk with Ben Mitchell, a man who has called Phong Nha home for the past 18 years.
Ben and his wife have played a huge role in developing sustainable tourism in the region, but their journey here wasn’t exactly planned.
In this blog, we will discover Ben’s journey in developing tourism in Phong Nha and give you some tips for experiencing the best of Phong Nha.
How Ben and His Wife Built a Life in Phong Nha
Ben first came to Vietnam for construction work, landing in a town just north of Da Nang. On weekends, he and his colleagues would visit a bar and restaurant in the city, which happened to be run by the woman who would later become his wife.
About a year into their relationship, she brought him back to her hometown in Phong Nha to visit her family. It was meant to be just a short trip, but for Ben, it was life-changing.
“I spent my whole life looking for this,” he told me.
His wife, however, had spent her whole life trying to leave.
Like many young people from rural areas, she had moved to the city in search of better opportunities. At that time, Phong Nha had very little development, limited job prospects, and even basic infrastructure like roads and transportation were lacking. It was a completely different world from what it is today.
Phong Nha Farmstay
Ben and his wife continued to travel overseas for their work, but the more they explored the world, the more they realized the potential to develop in Phong Nha.
In 2010, they made the decision to return to Phong Nha permanently and start something of their own. At first, it was just a small guesthouse, hosting backpackers who stopped by on motorbikes. Visitors would sleep at Ben’s wife’s parents’ home, but as more and more travelers came, it became clear that they needed a dedicated space.
That’s when they built Phong Nha Farmstay, one of the first accommodations in the area catering to international tourists. Over time, they expanded their efforts, opening Victory Road Villas and working closely with the local community to promote sustainable tourism.
Sustainable Tourism
For Ben and his wife, there was never a big discussion about whether they should focus on sustainable tourism—it was just the natural way to do things. Supporting local people, preserving the environment, and making sure that Phong Nha’s beauty was protected for future generations simply made sense.
The Evolution of Phong Nha: Then and Now
Of course, working with the local community wasn’t always easy. In the early days, there were plenty of misunderstandings, as many people didn’t fully grasp what tourism could bring. Some had short-term agendas, while others were skeptical about the idea of foreigners coming in and changing things.
But over time, as more opportunities emerged—jobs, businesses, and better infrastructure—things started to shift. Now, Phong Nha is a thriving destination with a growing number of eco-friendly tours, locally owned homestays, and an economy that directly benefits the people who live here.
The Evolution of Phong Nha: Then and Now
When I first arrived in Phong Nha, I was struck by how untouched it felt. Unlike other parts of Vietnam that had become tourist hotspots, this place still had that rare, off-the-beaten-path charm. But as much as I love the idea of discovering a place before it becomes too touristy, I also understand the benefits that development brings to local communities. Tourism creates jobs, improves infrastructure, and gives people access to better education and healthcare.
Phong Nha Before
In the past, Phong Nha was a different world. Few people had motorbikes, so they rarely traveled outside their villages. Roads were dirt tracks, and during the rainy season, children had to swim across rivers to reach school—sometimes with tragic consequences. Over time, bridges and roads were built, improving daily life.
Access to goods was also limited. Local men mostly wore old North Vietnamese Army uniforms because there were no clothing stores. Communication was nearly nonexistent—his village had just two landline phones. Now, Phong Nha has skipped straight to mobile phones and online shopping, with deliveries arriving by motorbike.
How Tourism Transformed Phong Nha
Today, Phong Nha is thriving. Concrete roads connect villages, almost everyone has a motorbike, and once-scarce goods are readily available. Tourism has brought income and opportunities, allowing locals to start businesses—hotels, restaurants, and tour companies. Domestic tourism has also surged, especially post-COVID.
Yet, despite these changes, Phong Nha has maintained its untouched beauty. Unlike other destinations that have been overdeveloped, it has grown in a way that supports the local community while preserving its natural wonders. And that’s what makes it so special.
Phong Nha – More Than Just Caves: A Region of Natural and Cultural Wonders
Phong Nha is home to some of the most breathtaking caves in the world. While exploring them, I kept running out of words to describe their beauty—stunning, incredible, epic. But even those felt inadequate. So, I sat down with Ben Mitchell, who has spent years helping to develop cave tourism in the region, to learn more about how these caves became accessible to visitors and how tourism has evolved here over time.
Bringing Tourists to Phong Nha’s Caves
Ben has been involved in Phong Nha’s tourism industry from the very beginning. When he first arrived, the caves were largely unknown to international travelers. He worked closely with others to open up cave tourism, market it to visitors, and help locals understand what foreign tourists were looking for.
“It was a completely different culture,” he told me. “The locals didn’t really understand why tourists would want to come here.”
Over time, Phong Nha became a major destination for adventure seekers and nature lovers. Today, there are two main types of cave tourism:
- Adventure Caving – Small group or private tours that take visitors into less-explored caves, often involving trekking, swimming, or even overnight camping.
- Show Caves – Larger, more accessible caves designed for high visitor numbers, with pathways, lighting, and guided tours.
The adventure caves offer a more exclusive and immersive experience, while the show caves allow more people to enjoy Phong Nha’s beauty.
How Tourism Transformed Phong Nha
Before Phong Nha became a well-known tourist destination, it was extremely remote. Getting there was difficult, and even in 2010, you could drive 45 kilometers to Dong Hoi without seeing another vehicle. There were no proper roads, and the only way to travel up and down the valleys was by boat.
Now, tourism has brought economic development and infrastructure improvements. Roads and bridges have made travel easier, and tourism jobs have provided locals with new opportunities. Phong Nha has also seen a rise in domestic tourism, especially after COVID-19, as more Vietnamese travelers started exploring their own country.
Natural and Cultural Wonders
Phong Nha is more than just its caves. The area is one of the most biodiverse regions in Vietnam, with six distinct seasons and an incredible variety of wildlife. It has the highest primate diversity in Southeast Asia and is home to rare plant species found nowhere else.
It’s also a place with deep historical significance. Phong Nha has been a contested region for centuries, changing hands between the Cham Empire and the Sino-Vietnamese Empire. During the French and American wars, it played a crucial role as a transportation corridor and a hiding place for soldiers.
Even today, the diversity of Phong Nha extends beyond nature and history. The region is home to a mix of cultures, including Catholic and Buddhist communities, as well as ethnic minority groups like the Bru-Vân Kiều and Rục people. Some of these groups were still living in caves until very recently, making Phong Nha’s connection to its caves even more meaningful.
The Best Way to Explore Phong Nha
1. Choose the Right Time to Visit
The best time to visit Phong Nha is from late February to April. The weather is mild—not too hot, not too cold—and perfect for exploring caves, trekking, and motorbiking.
I visited in December, and while it was still an incredible experience, the rain made some activities less enjoyable. In fact, we planned to visit the Dark Cave but skipped it at the last minute because it was just too cold. If you’re hoping to do water-based activities, avoid the colder months (November to January) when the weather can be chilly and rainy.
2. Explore the National Park by Motorbike
One of the best ways to see Phong Nha is by riding a motorbike through the national park. The winding roads take you through dramatic limestone karsts, dense jungle, and peaceful rural villages.
Ben gave us an excellent tip—do the park loop in both directions. We had already done the route one way, but riding it in reverse gave us a completely different perspective. The lighting changed, the landscapes looked new, and the clouds rolling over the mountains made it feel like an entirely different journey.
If you’re not comfortable riding a bike yourself, hire a local Easy Rider to take you around. They know the roads well and can share stories about the region along the way.
3. Visit the Caves—but Choose the Right Type for You
Phong Nha is famous for its caves, but there are two types of cave experiences:
- Show Caves – These are easily accessible and designed for larger groups. Caves like Paradise Cave, Phong Nha Cave, and Dark Cave have walkways, lighting, and guided tours. They’re great if you want to see the beauty of the caves without too much physical effort.
- Adventure Caves – If you’re looking for a more challenging and immersive experience, companies like Oxalis and Jungle Boss offer exclusive tours into less-visited caves. Some require trekking through the jungle, swimming in underground rivers, or even camping inside a cave overnight.
Regardless of which type of cave you choose, Phong Nha’s caves are unlike anything else in the world. Many travelers say they’ve visited caves elsewhere but wished they had saved the experience for Phong Nha because nothing compares.
4. Don’t Miss the Vinh Moc Tunnels
If you’re interested in history, a trip to the Vinh Moc Tunnels is a must. Unlike the Cu Chi Tunnels in the south, these were not built for guerrilla warfare but as an underground village where locals lived to escape American bombings.
The tunnels are much larger, making them easy to walk through. What makes them even more unique is their location right by the beach. You can enter from one side, walk through the tunnels, and come out onto the sand.
5. Plan a Motorbike Trip Along the DMZ
For those interested in Vietnam’s war history, a motorbike trip through the DMZ (Demilitarized Zone) offers a fascinating look into the past.
If you’re traveling south from Phong Nha to Hue, consider taking a detour through Khe Sanh, Highway 9, and the Coast of Ghosts. This route takes you through remote mountain passes, minority villages, and historic war sites, including the Khe Sanh Combat Base and Ben Hai River Museum.
6. Be Ready for the Unexpected
Phong Nha is one of those places that constantly surprises you. The landscapes, the caves, and the people all add to an experience that feels raw and untouched.
Even after years of traveling in Vietnam, this trip reminded me of just how incredible this country is. And as Ben said, even after living here for nearly two decades, he still finds himself amazed every time he explores.
If you’re planning a trip to Phong Nha, come with a sense of adventure, a flexible itinerary, and a willingness to explore beyond the usual tourist spots. Because once you get here, you’ll quickly realize—it’s a place you’ll want to return to again and again.
Conclusion
My time in Phong Nha was nothing short of incredible. From the breathtaking caves to the stunning landscapes and rich history, this place left a lasting impression on me. But more than that, it was the people—locals who have built a thriving community through sustainable tourism—that made it truly special.
If you’re looking for an adventure in Vietnam, put this place at the top of your list. Just don’t wait too long—because once you visit, you’ll wonder why you didn’t come sooner.
Don’t forget to follow for more experiences here in Vietnam.
Explore Phong Nha with Ben Mitchell
Niall: [00:00:00] How did you end up in Phong Nha of all places? I met
Ben: my wife when I was working in just north of Da Nang, for some construction work, about a year later she brought me here to meet the family and she was,”Oh, we’ll stay a few days and see my family we’re not staying here.” And I was like,
” I spent my whole life looking for this.” She said, “I spent my whole life trying to get out of here!
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With Explore, you can experience Vietnam in a small, intimate group guided by locals. Making your adventure both hassle free and filled with those spontaneous moments that make travel unforgettable.
Are youu ready to explore Vietnam? Then visit [00:01:00] exploreworldwide.com and start planning your next adventure to Vietnam today, and join me in this amazing country.
Brad ‘Bao’ Hirsch :
Niall: Welcome to a special episode of a Vietnam podcast with me, your host, Niall Mackay. I’ve been in Vietnam since 2016 here with my wife, Adri. We came here just for a very, very short time, fell in love with the place and couldn’t leave. And my guest today has a, I think a similar story. I started this podcast just as a hobby to share stories of people connected to Vietnam and share about this amazing country.
we’re going to explore the Phong Nha National Park region today. i’m really excited. I’ve been up here for eight days now. This is actually the first time we’ve ever done an in person, off site interview on a Vietnam podcast, so I’m really excited about that. We’re actually about six hours behind schedule because my guest today has been so busy, so if he and I look tired, then please forgive us, [00:02:00] but this is my last night in Phong Nha and I insisted that he had to do this interview.
before he went to bed tonight because we’re leaving first thing tomorrow morning. So this episode today, we’re going to be talking about the Fengyang National Park and the region around here and how beautiful it is. And as I said, Adrienne and I have been here for about a week now. We are obsessed already in just that short time and we are definitely going to be back.
My guest has been here for 18 years now, so obviously has a massive passion for the region, and he has been instrumental in helping the tourism industry grow here and helping the local people flourish as well, which I have seen firsthand as well, the difference it has made to local people.
He is the husband of the owner of the Fung Yat Farmstay, which we are here at right now, and the Victory Road Villas, which is in the Fung Yat Town as well, and he is massively passionate about tourism. Tourism and Sustainable Tourism and Helping the Local People here in Fung Yat. So I am really, really excited to interview today [00:03:00] on a Vietnam podcast, Ben Mitchell.
Ben, thank you so much for agreeing to do this. I’ve strong armed you, I’ve made you do it, but thank you so much.
Ben: Alright, thanks Niall. Yeah, so um, my wife and I have, uh, been doing tourism here now for about, we’ve had this business here for 14, over 14 years. We started off with some, uh, backpackers, uh, riding motorbikes through and, and, uh, they would stop and, uh, sleep at my wife’s parents place.
And that started to get too busy and her father was like, you know, how about your husband and all his friends go and find somewhere else to hang out? And so we built this place, Pongya Farmstay, in the village where my wife’s family comes from. And, uh, Yeah, we’ve sort of been working towards, started off trying to get tourists to come to the area [00:04:00] and nowadays there’s a lot of places to stay and a lot of companies taking people around the park and a lot of different things you can do, a lot of Sites opened up, different caves, different activities and things.
It’s a really good area for like three to four days Some people haven’t got that much time You can do a lot of really cool highlights in a day or two. It’s
Niall: a good area.
let’s go back to the beginning. Where are you from and how did you end up in Phong Nha of all places? Because most people end up in Saigon or Hanoi, even maybe Da Nang or Hoi An.
Well, I met, I met
Ben: my wife.
When I was working in just north of Da Nang, when I came to Vietnam for some construction work, um, she was running a bar and restaurant in Da Nang and uh, we’d go there on the weekends. Um, about a year later she brought me here to meet the, the family and uh, she was sort of [00:05:00] like, oh we’ll, we’ll stay a few days and see my family and I was like, wow, you know, she was like, we’re not staying here and I was like.
I spent my whole life looking for this. She said I spent my whole life trying to get out of here. You know, like, so, nah, but, we, over the next few years, we were bouncing around working construction and uh, you know, we both could see the potential of coming here and trying to do something in the local community.
So we, we, 2010 we came back here permanently and built this place.
Niall: That’s amazing.
Ben: Yeah.
Niall: It’s so funny because we’ve just done an episode recently about what’s a secret rule for the unwritten rule for expats. and it was from Rochelle Nguyen. And her unwritten rule was that if you’re dating a Vietnamese girl and she takes you back home to see her parents that pretty much means you’re engaged.[00:06:00]
Ben: Probably, yeah, I reckon. Did you realise that at the time? Uh, well, I know now. There
Niall: you go. She knew. She’s like, alright, this is it. But that’s beautiful. Your wife is amazing. We’ve met her here a bit. It’s just, uh, incredible. And I feel like behind any White Expat, there’s an amazing woman behind him. Yeah.
Would
Ben: you agree? Yeah. Wouldn’t survive
Niall: here, I wouldn’t. So when you first came here, I mean, we’re here now, and one of the things we’re loving about it is it’s untouched almost, so it’s untouristied. There’s not many tourists about. I’ve said this before in this podcast, right? I feel really guilty, and I hate to be that person that’s like, you know, when we’ve been to Laos and Thailand and even in Vietnam, I’m like, oh, it 20 years ago.
But that also means 20 years ago the population was poorer, they had less access to, you know, whatever they have access to, education,
Ben: medical, all of that stuff, right?
Niall: So I hate to be that [00:07:00] person that’s like, Oh, this place would have been so nice 20 years ago. And I feel like this place is the first place I’ve been to where I can actually say, Oh, I got here before it became too touristy.
So I’m very conscious of, of wanting places. to not be popular or not be touristy because I know the benefits that it brings to the local population. But this place is incredible. What was it like when you first got here? Because I cannot imagine.
Ben: Yeah, it was incredible. Um, transport was a big problem.
There was hardly anyone had a motorbike. So people didn’t travel very far. They didn’t, didn’t go, they didn’t leave their village very much. Nowadays, everyone’s got motorbikes and things are a lot, a lot more. Economic development is moving a lot quicker. The, the government’s put in little concrete roads through all the villages and things like that, and that speeds things up.
It’s, [00:08:00] it’s, uh, bridges over rivers. Kids aren’t drowning on the way to school now by taking a shortcut across the river. There’s a bridge, you know, that was a problem. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Up, up. Like where you went up to the pub with cold beer. Yeah. Yeah. That was a problem in that, in that valley there.
Every wet season. So instead
Niall: of, so the way didn’t get to school would be to swim across a river?
Ben: Yeah. They’d, they’d, they’d have to go across the river and of course they didn’t swim,
Niall: so
Ben: they’re, uh, they’d get into trouble all the time. Yeah. Like that valley itself, as far as roads going up there and things like for many months of the year, sort of before 2010, many months of the year.
Only boats could go up and down that valley. People didn’t move up and down the valley because they didn’t have motorbikes and they, the roads were really bad and it was just a cow track basically along the side of the river. Very muddy. Um, and people, everyone along that valley had a [00:09:00] boat with a motor on the back and they’d zoom up and down the river and ride over the rapids and stop and.
Nowadays, you never see a boat on that river anymore. Like, everyone just rides up and down next to the river on a concrete road on both sides of the river. Things like that. So, transportation’s changed and, um, uh, access to everything and, uh, uh, I mean, people here used to wear, the men only wore, uh, uh, NVA army uniforms from, NVA uniforms for the North Float.
They’re only dressed in uniforms. The menswear section at the market was only army uniforms in different little stalls. The, the womenswear section was ladies sitting in front of their store with a, with a manual sewing machine that they use their feet to drive. and scissors and a tape measure, and behind them big piles of floral material.
And the women only wore floral pajamas. Yeah, [00:10:00] yeah. You know, and things like that. Access. Now, now things come into the area, things go out of the area. You know, the big road out there, um, that all the tourism comes in and out from the airport and the train station on, that was built in 2006. And even in 2010, you could.
Going to Dong Hoi, 45 kilometres and not seeing another vehicle on that road, it was very, very quiet.
Niall: Well you were mentioning last night, some of your kids I think were mentioning about getting stuff delivered online. And I’m, I’m not going to lie, I’m so naive, I was like, well you can get deliveries here online?
Because it does seem so remote that
Ben: Yeah, like in this village When I came here, there was two landline phones. No. Far as I know, there’s still two landline phones. No, there’s probably no, nobody has a landline phone. They never did that, that segment of development. They just had no phones and then everyone got mobile phones.
Yeah. So they didn’t do the thing too, where you have big shops built down the road. [00:11:00] They just went with the mobile phones. They just went straight to Shopee. Right, right. Everything gets bought on a motorbike. feel like such an idiot because I’m like,
Niall: I think that this wouldn’t, stuff wouldn’t get delivered here, but you can just get stuff delivered here like usual.
Yeah, yeah. That’s crazy. So when you first came here and, well, my first question is, how did you persuade your wife to come back here? Because I think that’s so interesting that you’re like, I’ve been looking for this place and your wife is like, I’ve been trying to get away.
Ben: With my work, we, we, we, we were in, you know, other parts of Southeast Asia, we’re in the Middle East, we’re in Australia, um, and then after she was traveling a lot with my work, um, she could see then that what, where she was from originally did have a lot of potential for tourism.
So, you know, we were talking and. But we should do something back there and she was like, yeah, we should like, I could, you know, after she’d been out and traveled around the world a bit, she realized, [00:12:00] you know, it’s a bit like the alchemist. Yeah. Right back where she started is where the action was. So she came home and started building it with me. And we, working with the local community a lot. Very difficult for it to, to work with the local community. Sometimes it has been, especially at the beginning, lot of misunderstandings and a lot of things like, uh, a lot of people’s expectations and short term agendas and things that you have to deal with at the beginning.
Niall: So why did you both decide we’re going to focus on sustainable tourism?
Ben: I don’t think there was ever a conscious decision to do that. It’s just. What worked for us and it worked for us as, uh, you know, the way we felt things should
Niall: be, so, yeah. And was it difficult for her then coming back? Was she seen as an outsider or like, as a part of the community?
Ben: Oh, I don’t think so, because, I mean, it [00:13:00] was, you know, basically it was a team. It was me and her and her two brothers who’d never really left. the area for much. So, you know, it’s a local business. It’s, uh, I mean, I’m, I’m here helping, but it’s in no way my business. Yeah.
Niall: So when you came here and you visited and I’m looking over here, cause you can’t see, but in the distance, there’s just beautiful, uh, cast limestone, limestone casts everywhere.
It’s just stunning. And. Fong Yat is known for its caves, and if you don’t know already, the largest cave in the world is here in Fong Yat, called Son Dung Cave, which was found when? Like, just like the other day.
Ben: Effectively, the first people went into it in 2009.
Niall: That’s mental. 2009.
Ben: A lot of tourists say to me, like, oh yeah, right, you know, but no, yeah, like, really?
Really, right? Yeah. But
Niall: now you can understand it, so we’ve [00:14:00] been out here, and we follow these trails and these guides. So we went to Paradise Cave and there’s all these concrete tracks and you follow it and it’s easy to find.
But afterwards we looked around at the dense jungle and we’re like, how did somebody find this? You can imagine how it would be so difficult because it’s just this small entrance. There’s a group of,
Ben: there’s a group of British cavers. Right. And they first came to the area in 1990. Um, they, they’ve been exploring, discovering, mapping, um, all the caves in the area.
Because you gotta imagine hunters would see a cave entrance and that’d be a cave. But they didn’t have torches. Yeah, they weren’t, they weren’t cave explorers. The local people who lived here, they might go into the cave to avoid a thunderstorm, just entrance storm or something like that. Right. Or a camp in there, you know?
But you have to be careful ’cause there might be tiger in there, you know? And true, truly. Like that’s a real thing, you know. [00:15:00] And snakes and spiders. Around the entrance of the cave, there’s always some snakes hanging there because they’ll catch the bats as they come in and out and stuff. So, the entrance of the cave is a very interesting area.
You know, you’re in the cave and the outside world meet there and you know, you might have, uh, uh, you know, it’s a very interesting place that, that first part of the cave and the locals might use that, but they didn’t go into the caves and explore them and things, but the Brits did and the Brits came here and the Brits worked with the local people to find caves a lot.
They also went and found them themselves, but caves like Paradise Cave, you know, that’s discovered by the British cavers, with locals showing them the entrance to caves, and then they go through and find them, and find other exits and entrances, and how it all links up. And it turns out that Paradise Cave is discovered by the British Cavers Association.
It’s the longest cave in Vietnam. It’s the Vom Cave System, you know, and Paradise Cave [00:16:00] branch of it’s about seven kilometers long, coming off the Vom Cave System. And, uh, the British Cavers, you know, Howard Limbert, Deb Limbert. Uh, Adam Spillane. Um, these people have been coming here for, for many, many years.
And then when tourism started here, a local guy, uh, called Joe R., he, he started the company OXALIS and he employed these British cavers, professionals, who really knew what they were doing, to come and work as a safety role and helping to manage and train all the local staff. to do the tourism.
Niall: Yeah. And what’s been your involvement in the tourism industry and helping people access the caves?
Cause I know you’ve done a lot with opening up these caves. From the
Ben: beginning, I was involved at trying to open up cave tourism to the area. Um, and [00:17:00] working closely with, uh, other people as they open their companies to help them develop the cave tourism. You know, trying to get tourists to come to the area and then trying to market the cave tours and things like that.
Be involved at the very beginning in, in sort of explaining to local people what, uh, foreign tourists would be wanting to do if they come to the area because the locals didn’t really understand. It’s a very different culture.
Niall: Yeah.
Ben: Um, you know, the, there’s two types of tourism now here in Fongya. There’s the real adventure tourism where you go out with a specific company as a small group or even a private tour.
And you might, you might do overnight or day trip to a unique and You know, exclusive area. Then there’s the show caves, and some of the really big caves have been turned into caves [00:18:00] where they can manage a lot of people on a busy summer’s day. If you come, uh, outside, outside July and August, you might find that those big show caves don’t have many people really visiting them.
Anyway, but the weekends in July and August are very busy. We just had that. Well, even May, June, July, August sort of thing with the, with the domestic tourism now post COVID. We’ve seen a huge increase in domestic tourism in the summer. The Vietnamese really are getting out and enjoying their own country nowadays in comparison COVID with the domestic market.
Um, the domestic market really supported the tourism industry during COVID and it just exploded. And nowadays, the summers are very busy here in Fong Yau with domestic tourism. Most of it stays in the big hotels in Dong Hoi. and comes [00:19:00] out and sees the show caves during the day.
Niall: What do you mean by show caves?
Ben: The Paradise Cave, the Fongya Cave, the Dark Cave, those caves that are made for a lot of tourists to come and visit. So the companies who manage those caves just sell tickets to lots of people, whereas other caves like, uh, all the ones that Exalis visit, Jungle Boss, Greenland, those companies, they have exclusive rights to caves.
and areas in the province, both in the park and outside the park. And they, uh, they have more of an exclusive style of tourism where, where it’s only for smaller groups to go and visit areas.
Niall: And we have, we have the, one of the reasons why they have like exclusive rights to the cave is they have more ownership over it, like the group that runs it.
So if there’s trash left, It’s their group that left the trash. If anything [00:20:00] goes wrong, it’s them. You can’t blame anyone else. Yeah. Is that true? Yeah, well, they’ve
Ben: got to take responsibility for the cave that they are managing. Yeah, or the area of the park or whatever area it is. It’s, it’s a little bit different concept to what most Western countries would, would have.
But yeah, they’re, they’re responsible, so. Whether it’s a show cave or a more exclusive area, they’re responsible for how that’s managed.
Niall: how would you describe these caves because as we’ve been going around I’m running out of adjectives because I just keep using like this is stunning, it’s incredible, it’s amazing, it’s epic.
Ben: Yeah I’m always hearing, well I wish I hadn’t bothered visiting caves anywhere else. Whether it be Vietnam or at home, you know, like people are like, well we won’t bother visiting caves when we go home again. Because the caves here are pretty spectacular and pretty unique, they’re big and they’re, full of adventure.
Like there’s a lot going on in them. You know, there’s no, [00:21:00] no crawling through tight spaces for hours and stuff. You really, a lot of the caves that you visit here, you’re either walking from or you’re just swimming down a river, down a cave, or in a boat down a cave river. Um, you know, they are a lot bigger and a lot more accessible and so many in a small area.
Niall: Um,
Ben: the jungle is quite unique. The area has got a lot of biodiversity. It’s got the highest primate diversity in Southeast Asia, a lot of other things about the, the, the biodiversity. With the climate here, You know, Southern Vietnam gets two seasons, the wet and the dry. North Vietnam sort of gets four seasons, like, uh, summer, autumn, winter, and spring.
Here we get six seasons, so we get all of those seasons together. And we’ve got plants and animals that are endemic to the north, plants and animals from the south. Plus, we’ve got plants and animals that are only found here. [00:22:00] You know, so it’s got a very high biodiversity for plants and animals. Um, the history of the area is Really interesting.
You know, this area has always lied between, you know, it’s always a controversial area. If you go back to the Cham Empire, the Sino Vietnamese Empire, this area used to change hands between them. Um, the Cham, uh, never held it long enough to build their Cham temples and things here, but they did leave a lot of pottery laying around.
They did put graffiti in some of the caves. They did knock down stalactites and stalagmites and make altars in the caves for the monks and things. Um, the, if you go sort of through history then, You know, the, the French fought here, very, like the French war between 1946 and 1954 was very heavy here, and that was because [00:23:00] this is the natural corridor between North and South Vietnam here, this is the thinnest part of the country, and everything has to come through here, like the railway line, the, the roads, the, it all has to come straight through this corridor, so, The Viet Minh could attack the French transportation routes from the jungles of Phong Nga and then retreat back to them again, you know, and, uh, the, the area was chosen by the Americans to bomb very heavily during the American war because this was a very narrow area again where they could cut off the supply from the north going to the south.
So, geographically, Geographically, it’s affected historically because of those sorts of things. Um, yeah, the Ho Chi Minh Trail came through here. The, this was called the staging point [00:24:00] of the Ho Chi Minh Trail, so a lot of things came down the coast and came through here to get into the mountains and down to South Vietnam, around the DMZ, over into Laos, the road goes straight over into Laos, the road through Phong Nha, Phong Nha village, the tourism village now is centered around the Pha Dung Son ferry crossing, which was a ferry crossing for the Ho Chi Minh Trail, and I mean, that’s effectively Why the town is where it is.
So, you know, like, uh, it’s got a lot, it’s, yeah, I mean, biodiversity, scenic beauty, geomorphology, history, it’s all here.
Niall: I, I, being here.
Ben: Culture, I haven’t mentioned culture, the people. Go on, the culture, the people. The local people. There’s, uh, huge Catholic populations, there’s huge Lung populations, Ancestor worship, there’s, uh, over on the coast, which is only 20 minute drive from where we’re [00:25:00] sitting now, there’s a lot of Buddhists, you know, it’s, uh, it’s a culturally diverse area as well.
In the mountains, there’s different minority tribes, there’s the Brew Van Kew, there’s the Rook people, the Rook people. fairly new to the modern world. I mean, they, they sort of, they were still living in caves up until very recently. So, you know, they’re, they’re a, they’re a minority group that’s in, in, in the park or north, northern side of the park.
Niall: Yeah. So when you first went to Fong Yat Kew, that, that’s lit up, right? That has lights in it right now.
Ben: Yeah.
Niall: Did it have those when you came? It had a
Ben: couple of colored lights in it.
Niall: Yeah. Yeah. Who put them there then?
Ben: Uh, the tourism had started before I got here, but, um, there wasn’t any tourists. I think the Lonely Planet said, don’t worry about it.
No. Yeah. It said, said that cost too much to get [00:26:00] there. And cause you had to get out from Dong Hoi and there was no transport. And, uh, it said, it said there’s some colored garish lights with some, with some cigarette butts on the floor. And, uh, Yeah, I mean, we had to change that. Um, that was fairly important.
Did you get Lonely Planet back out here and redo it? Um, yeah, I was pretty, pretty adamant that he should come, that they should come out here and have a look. And they did, and they fell in love with the area straight away, once they sort of started to have a look around.
Niall: So how would you describe the Fongya Cave?
Because it’s just, again, I can’t think of adjectives. Did you scream it? Because it’s so incredible. Yeah, it’s
Ben: pretty amazing. I mean, all the caves are amazing and they’re all different too. Yeah. And, uh, there’s some, just even like talking about, In two days going around the show caves in the park, you know, like you’ve got so many different activities going on.
You’re, you’re swimming in caves, you’re swimming in turquoise blue rivers, you’re, uh, [00:27:00] swimming under waterfalls, you’re visiting caves that you’ve got to walk through the jungle to get to, you’re visiting caves in boats with local people rowing you through the cave. There’s, um, yeah, there’s a lot of different activities.
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Ben: I mean, I, I believe the best way [00:28:00] to see the National Park is on a motorbike and, uh, I believe the best way to do that is to hop on the back of a local rider, like community based tourism and go around the park with one of the local people taking you around and, you know. We’ve got a podcast that people can listen to, to gain information as they go around the park, on all the different things they’ll see along the way, visiting different sites along the way.
You know, when, when people come and stay with us, we talk to them about what their interests are and, and what sort of day they’re after and look at the weather and look at what the, the time of year it is. And then we send them off on an, on an awesome day out with a podcast. If it’s a couple, they go together.
If it’s a family group, they can. They can all just stick together and go around the park at 40, you know, Fongyar at 40. Yeah. 40 kilometers an hour.
Niall: Well, we’ve been listening to the podcast. It’s an amazing, like a guide that tells you what to see, what you’re looking at and what to do. So I would, that’s a [00:29:00] massive recommendation.
And I don’t know if you can hear, or if you can see right now, there is rain all around us. So we are here right now recording in December 27th and I’ve been putting out a whole, I’m going to be putting out a whole bunch of videos of our trip here because it has been so incredible but it’s been wet and it’s been rainy and we actually today, I don’t know if we told you this yet, we were going to go to the dark cave and we chickened out at the last minute because it was too cold.
Think about the time you want to come here if you’re going to visit because, so you told us I think March is the, the ideal time, not too hot, not too cold. End of
Ben: February all through March and into April is the best time of year. March being the
Niall: best.
Ben: Yeah, so I think. Weather wise, I think it’s great.
Weather, so
Niall: part of the reason we didn’t do the Dark Cave, so we went, we saw, we saw the introduction video, it was already raining, we were already cold, and we’re like, This is just going to be too cold. But the biggest reason why we didn’t do it is because [00:30:00] we knew we were going to come back. And we’re like, we’ll do this when we come back when the weather’s better.
But then we took the bike around and you’re saying the best thing to do is go around on a bike. That was it. We actually asked you at GPT what to do, what else could we what else could we do? We’d done most of the stuff. And we just got on the bike and just drove around. The best advice you gave us today as well was because we’d already done the loop in one direction.
And you said do it in the other direction. Do it any clockwise. Yeah, and you see it from a totally different perspective. And even in the caves, you see that we walked through one of the caves one way. Obviously, you can’t choose, but you have to then walk back and being able to see everything from a different perspective.
So today, doing the park. And also the weather had changed. So when we did it the other day, it was a relatively dry day. The clouds were high. Today, we couldn’t see the top of the cast because the clouds were so low. And we were essentially driving through clouds and just, I mean, we’ve done the Hazang loop.
We’ve been to Laos, been to Thailand, and [00:31:00] we’ve, we’ve fallen in love with this place. It’s just incredible.
Ben: Yeah, so we’ll
Niall: have to get you back in the, in the spring. I think that’s the plan. And the other thing I wanted to ask about, because I’ve not seen too much posted about it, but is the DMZ, and you did mention to me a while ago, the Vinh Moch, Vinh Moch Tunnels are one of the best things you can do, you said?
I think the Vinh
Ben: Moch Tunnels is one of the best things a tourist could visit in Vietnam. Like It’s, it’s a big claim because there’s
Niall: so many
Ben: amazing things to do here. It’s got a lot going on. Like it’s, it’s historical because it’s, uh, an underground village built during the American war. The people had to stay there to protect their land from the Americans.
So they all went underground. The other thing is its location. It’s right on the beach. So the tunnels, you actually go into the tunnels and then you come out on the beach and then you go in a different. entrance and you come out [00:32:00] another one and, and you’re going along the beach as you, as you go in and out of these tunnels.
Are they like the coochie tunnels, like tiny? No, like you, you, because they’re not built to hide from American soldiers, they’re built to hide from bombing. Right. So they’re quite big and you can walk around through them very easily. Like I’m, I’m not a small person and I can walk around through the, the caves no problem at all.
Niall: Yeah.
Ben: And, um, You know, so there’s a brand new museum there, which has been really well done. It’s only a small museum, so it doesn’t take you all day to go around. But it does give you a really good feel for what’s going on at the tunnels. What they’re about, what they’re for, and how they built them, and why they built them.
But it’s not going to take all day, you know. And the other good
thing about it is, is the Venmoc tunnels are on the way from somewhere to somewhere.
Niall: Yeah
Ben: And, uh, it’s a great place to break the trip up um, with a stop along the way [00:33:00] between Hue coming up to Phong going down to Hue or Phong Ngao going all the way through to Hoi An coming all the way up in one day too if you are in a private car.
It’s a good spot to stop. Um Yeah, so, so yeah, for those reasons, I think it’s, it’s really, it’s, it’s, and plus no one goes there. Oh, well, that’s what I was about to say. Plus no one goes there, like, you know, because. Everyone goes to Coochie Tunnels and they’d spend a whole day going out there. That’s Saigon selling that.
No one’s selling the Vinh Moc Tunnels, and that’s why no one goes there. Not because they’re not cool, but because no one’s selling them. Well, our first trip to Vietnam. They’re too far from Hue, they’re too far from Hanoi, and
Niall: no one’s selling
Ben: it.
Niall: You know? Our first trip to Vietnam was a typical trip. I think we’d about 14, 15 days here.
Did the usual Saigon, Mekong Delta. Did we go to Cu Chi Tunnels? I can’t remember. Nang. Didn’t go to Hue on that first trip. Then went up to Hanoi, go to Sapa. We literally saw, not the whole country, but we went from the top to the bottom. [00:34:00] I don’t ever remember the Vinh Moc Tunnels ever being mentioned. I don’t even think in the 9 years we’ve been here I’ve really heard the Vinh Moc Tunnels being mentioned.
Or the DMZ. Or Phong Nha, like we were talking about today. We don’t even think we’d heard of Phong Nha caves until maybe a couple of years ago. So it’s cool that they are off the beaten track. And if you do want to come to Viet This country, I’m amazed by it. Like, even this trip, I’m just like, this country is so beautiful.
And I’ve been to so many places. Yeah, this
Ben: happens to me every time I travel in Vietnam too.
too
Niall: You forget. Because I live in Saigon as well. I live in a high rise. I live in the big city. You forget that this stuff exists. So I want to check the Vinmok Tunnels out. And then I don’t actually know anything about the DMZ.
Ben: Yeah, the DMZ is a very interesting place. So I mean, say a lot of people say, Oh, we’re not going to Hue. We were told that it’s not worth visiting, you know, for that. I mean, Hue is worth visiting. It’s an amazing town. But even if it’s [00:35:00] only even if it was only worth visiting, because there’s if you were coming north out of Hoi An, There’s a whole amazing day trip between Hui and, between Hoi An and Hui, or Hui and Hoi An if you’re heading south.
There’s another interesting day where you can get a private car from Hui up to the DMZ and stop at the, the Ben Hai River, uh, museum. Like, where the bridge is, the old reunification bridge, between North and South Vietnam. Stop there for half an hour, have a look at the museum, take a photo on the bridge, whatever.
North South Vietnam border. Then come up to the Vinh Moc Tunnels and spend about 45 minutes exploring the tunnels. And then you’re up to Fongya and, you know, late lunch in Fongya, vice versa if you’re going south from, uh, Fongya, you’d stop Binmok Tunnels, Ben Hai River Museum, you’d be in [00:36:00] Hue for a late lunch and maybe see the Citadel in the afternoon.
The following day, I’d recommend getting a motorbike tour from Hue. to Hoi An or, or, you know, or vice versa if you’re coming north.
Niall: Well, I think that’s where we’re going to come back. Yeah, well, no, just a one day
Ben: motorbike tour Hoi to Hoi An or Hoi An to Hoi is, is great, but what I, if you want to do that, this, this central area properly, um, I think the two day motorbike tour from Hoi up to Vimok Tunnels, over to Khe San, and then up the Ho Chi Minh Trail all the way up to Phong Nha.
Um, over two days, staying overnight in Khe Sanh, um, an amazing, amazing couple of days. And again, you’re on the way to somewhere, you’re not going up and then having to come back to, you know, um, yeah, it’s a, it’s a great couple of days.
Niall: It’s
Ben: a great cross section of Central Vietnam too.
Niall: What is the DMZ though, like what is in it?[00:37:00]
Ben: The DMZ. What do you see
Niall: when you go there? I literally don’t know.
Ben: If you go from here, from Fongya heading south to Khe San, it’s jungle. clad mountain passes for all day through some minority villages along the way. There’s not something specifically. It is the most remote part of the country. Oh, okay. As well, like you’ll go for an hour without seeing another human.
It’s very hard to do that in Vietnam. Yeah. But you will on that road. Oh, okay. And then you’ll stay in Khe Sanh. You’ll go and see the Khe Sanh combat base, which is where there was a big battle. during the, the American war. And there’s now a big museum there on the old airstrip and it’s very interesting place.
What you will also see is the real Vietnam, like not the, not the developed tourism Vietnam out that way. And then the next day I would suggest those, that motorbike tour that you do with the [00:38:00] Easy Riders. Um, you’d go from, from Khe San across the country, following Highway 9, stopping at different, uh, sites along the way, maybe some cemeteries, battlegrounds, um, and then you go to the Vimok Tunnels and then you go down Through the fishing villages, through the Coast of Ghosts, it’s all these temples all the way down the coast.
Coast of Ghosts. Yeah, like all graves, um, and all multi coloured and just amazing architecture for about 80 kilometres all the way down the coast from fishing villages and graveyards. Yeah, and then you’re in the way down at the bottom there. So that’s over two days. Um, a great, uh, motorbike tour also one day from way to Hoi An as I say.
Yeah. Stopping at Hoi An. Elephant Springs, Waterfalls, Swimming Holes, Uh, [00:39:00] Temples, Fishing Villages, Marble Mountain, Hai Van Park, Yeah,
Niall: Yeah,
Ben: It’s all there.
Niall: So you’ve been here for so long, you’ve helped so much with the tourism and tourism is growing and as I mentioned it’s not over touristy, we don’t have any big resorts yet, they may come one day, but it’s still, still the real Vietnam.
What difference have you seen that that has made to the local people here?
Ben: Oh, there’s a lot of people here have opened their own businesses, um, in tourism, uh, people that work for some of the companies that have opened up with tourism, they’ve got, it’s a career path for them, working in either hospitality or as tour guides, um, even people who, who maybe don’t have the education to work in certain jobs.
There’s, there’s jobs like, uh, motorbike riders around the park, um, a big one’s the porters, you know, some of the greatest hunters [00:40:00] and timber cutters on the planet are not hunting and timber cutting now, they’re working as porters, carrying all the equipment
Niall: for the trekking tours and things. When we were on the tour, um, the guy actually, I, he, I thought it was amazing that he said this because the porters are carrying some of our luggage, they’re carrying all the food and everything.
And he said, I don’t want you to feel bad about the porters carrying everything. For one, that’s their job. Two, they don’t carry more than 30 kgs. And three, these guys used to work in the jungle. They’re jungle men. They used to carry logs up to 60 kgs. So what they’re doing now. Yeah, it’s a light load. Yeah,
Ben: which is crazy.
And they love it. They really enjoy their work and it’s sustainable.
Niall: Yeah,
Ben: you know, and that’s a big key point is the sustainability of it. Which is another thing about the people who take you around the National Park on the back of their motorbikes. Um, they, they, uh, they’re used to carrying [00:41:00] half a ton of timber and, and, uh, that sounds like an exaggeration, but it’s real.
They’re used to carrying, uh, like big loads on their motorbike and that, and they’re getting their, their day’s wages for, for taking a tourist around the park and stopping at places for two or three hours at each place while the customer goes off and does the, uh, The trip, they sit around and gossip.
Maybe act with the other ones and, uh, we learn a lot when they get back each afternoon about what’s happening all around the place because they’re the carriers of information.
Niall: Well, what, my last question is, you said about the local people had never met foreigners before. What is the local people’s perceptions of foreigners, of tourists?
Ben: Uh, I think anyone that’s working in tourism obviously appreciates the foreign tourists coming and going. a lot of local people, I think they’re [00:42:00] getting used to us a bit now. I think at the beginning, it was very, very odd. You know, you’d be stared at
Niall: and, um, not to mention the cultural, the, of the American war, as you mentioned, and foreign invaders.
Ben: That, that was never such a drama here that, that, that people would be upset at foreigners generally. No, I mean, there’s, um, I mean, in conversation, it comes up, but not, not that people would be rude. I think, I think little kids, little boys can be a problem anywhere in the world. Like, you know, maybe throwing a bit of Buffalo shit at the tourists is fun and like running off and stuff like that.
There’s been instances of that throughout the last 15 years where we’ve had to like, try and put an end to it. We just heard from
Niall: your daughter the day that she had two little boys throw rocks at her. Little boys can be little boys anywhere in the world. I want to see if you have an answer to this, right?
So we’ve, we’ve experienced this in Hazang, and we’ve experienced it [00:43:00] here as well a little bit. Most of the kids, 99 percent of the kids that we pass, they’re driving to school or from school, they’re like, hello, hello, big smiles on their face. But every now and again, and it happened more up in Hazang, a little kid will drive by you and they go, Oh, And they give you the finger with a really evil face.
And we’ve had it happen a couple of times here. Yeah. And we don’t think they have ill intentions. Maybe they do, but where are they learning that from? And it’s not all the kids, it’s just, or maybe their parents telling them something bad or they’ve picked it up from the internet.
Ben: I think they might be picking it up off the backpackers riding through on motorbikes themselves.
You think the backpackers are giving them the finger? I don’t know. That’s, that’s one of my thoughts on it because I see a lot of it when I ride anywhere like, you know, I take a tour from So gone to Hanoi. Yeah. And do you get it as well? You see a lot of it all the way along.
Niall: You see it all over Vietnam.
Yeah. Just random kids give you the finger.
Ben: Yeah. Yeah. It’s weird. And it’s funny, like, it’s funny, like,
Niall: well Adrie said she saw somebody once give the finger, [00:44:00] like with a really angry face like this, and then just lit up left and it’s like, yeah,
Ben: right. Yeah. They’re, uh, they’re just
Niall: testing it. . Yeah. . Yeah. Well.
Thank you so much, Ben. I know I kind of strong armed into this. He’s had a long, long day and, uh, this was our last chance to do this. Honestly, thank you so much for your hospitality, your family’s hospitality. It’s been amazing. Uh, all your wisdom, all your advice. As I said, we’ve fallen in love with this place in the time we’ve been here and we can’t wait to get back.
So thank you very much for everything you’ve done for us and for what you do for the region. It’s incredible. We, I don’t know if I told you, we were at the, the Fung Yat Cave. And we were talking to each other about being at the Fong Nha Farmstay and the woman turned around and she’s like, Oh, Ben Mitchell, Ben Mitchell, Oh, Fong Nha Farmstay.
Like she knew who you were. There was somewhere else we were when it was like, Oh, you know, Ben Mitchell. They’re like, yeah, yeah. Ben Mitchell, Ben Mitchell. Like everybody knows who you are. So you’ve obviously had a massive impact on this area, which is [00:45:00] incredible. So thank you for everything. Good
Ben: to get you up here.
And, uh, I’m glad we’ve had the opportunity to show you around and hopefully through the podcast, we can, uh, get a few more. Tourists to the area.
Niall: Yeah, and not too many because we don’t want it to be not too many. Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of a Vietnam podcast. I really appreciate it.
Remember follow, subscribe, turn on notifications and leave a review and the best thing that you can do is share it with someone else who wants to know more about Vietnam, who’s passionate about Vietnam as well. And also remember you can follow us on Instagram and Facebook as well. Send me a message. I always love to hear from you.
Thank you so much. And Ben, thank you so much. This has been amazing. All right. Thanks, mate. Cheers.