Breaking Stereotypes & Empowering Gen Z in Vietnam 

Jessie Nguyen

[00:00:00]

Niall: Welcome to season 11 of a Vietnam podcast with me, your host, Neil Mackay.

I first came to Vietnam in 2015 for a vacation and absolutely fell in love with the place. Came back a year later for just six weeks to learn how to teach English, and that was in 2016, so it was over eight years ago. There’s something about Vietnam that just. makes you stay here. There’s an energy in Saigon especially that draws people in and why it’s become my home.

Back in 2019, I started a podcast as a hobby. It was originally called a Saigon, it was originally called a Saigon podcast and then became a Vietnam podcast and that podcast was there just to share stories of people that are connected to Vietnam and it’s grown from them and it’s grown from then into something that I could never imagine and now five years later we are here in season 11.

So I’m really excited for my guest today. My guest today was born in [00:01:00] Haiyung up in the north. Now she lives in the south in Saigon so she has a dual culture so she knows better than anyone what it’s like to be from the north and the difference between the south because they are very very different from what I know.

She works for a global tech company

NFQ based here in Saigon. And she wants to showcase Vietnamese talent to the world about how innovative it can be. And she also wants to help elevate Vietnam and showcase the social responsibility that young people can take on board. So I’m really excited to introduce today from NFQ, Jessie.

No in. Thank you very much for coming on a Vietnam podcast.

Stereotypes about Vietnam

Jessie: Thank you. Neils. Welcome to NFQ

Niall: We are here in the NFQ recording and you guys have an amazing office. It’s one of these places that I’ve driven by so many times and then you introduced me to it and it’s like wow. Which brings me to what I think Vietnam is today because I think it’s so easy to drive by and I mean even where I live we see water buffaloes, there’s [00:02:00] rice paddies.

People think of Vietnam as a war torn country. They think of it as a third world country which really pisses me off when I hear that. see people in comments and on Facebook and talk about Vietnam being this poor country. Obviously it has poor elements to it like many countries do. Many other countries have massive homelessness problems and other issues that Vietnam doesn’t face.

So you, you want to help change that perception of Vietnam to the world through technology. So tell us more about NFQ and how you do that and how you elevate young Vietnamese people.

Jessie: No, I might, I might not, um, speaking on behalf of the company for this podcast, which is maybe my personal perspective for

Niall: so I’ll change that question and so I won’t say NFQ.

So what you want to do is elevate Vietnam’s position in the world as innovators in technology, which I personally [00:03:00] think is incredible because I see the potential here in Vietnam. I see first hand the amazing things that people are doing that you might drive by every day and you don’t even notice it.

How do you plan to do that? And how is, tell us, how is that happening?

Jessie: Well, this is, I may ask you first, what is your first impressions about Vietnam as compared to your imagination?

Niall: Man,

it was so long ago, it’s difficult. I mean, so what’s really difficult to, difficult to answer that question is because I came as a tourist and so it pretty much fulfilled those examples because we went to the rice paddies and we went to the Mekong Delta and we saw people with the conical hats on and we went to Boi Vien, probably.

Did we go to Boi Vien? I hope not. Maybe we did, but we drunk cheap beer. So, um, To be honest, it did fulfill a lot of those stereotypes. The only reason that I harp on about this so much is because in my position as an expat who’s, who’s been here for so long, I can see that Vietnam is not what you think it is.

And one of the reasons I bring it [00:04:00] up often as well is one of our first guests was Lewis Wright. And was it Lewis or was it someone else? I’m sorry if I’m forgetting who it was. But he talked about how people back home would ask him like, Oh, is it all like, Thatch huts and rice paddies and buffalos and there’s one of the comedians on the circuit when I was doing comedy, Tommy, he had a really funny joke about when he would call his dad and his dad would hear like bikes in the background like in the motorbikes and his dad would be like what’s that a helicopter like which obviously Many, many people overseas probably would think, yeah, was that a helicopter?

No, no, there’s no helicopters. There’s no war machines going about. It would just be traffic. So I think it’s more over time that I’ve noticed that it’s changed. What was it like for you growing up in High Yonge?

Jessie: I was born and raised in the countryside.

So yes, you’re right, there are buffalo and rice paddy fields. And that’s, that’s a beautiful world that we, I, I walk to school every day, one kilometers. And yes, I walk past the rice paddy fields. That’s [00:05:00] how I grew up. And then when I was 15 years old, my whole family moved to Ho Chi Minh City, which is, I might say this a whole new world.

It’s a whole new world and, uh, up to now, I still believe that Ho Chi Minh City is the most, like, dynamic city, uh, of Vietnam.

Economy and entrepreneur

Niall: Yeah.

Jessie: And, uh, Um, but then back when, when I was, uh, primary, I was in primary school, people was talking about Vietnam. It’s about, uh, poverty deductions, and we talk a lot about the war, which is the concept of the word about Vietnam.

Uh, for tourism, uh, I had a conversation with, um, my friend from Australia, and he say that, yeah, before, I don’t want people to remember Vietnam just about banh mi and pho. Yep. So now the economics, um, so. Okay, there’s some data about that. In 2000, we are ranking about the fifth, the sixties. Somethings across the 100, uh, 195 [00:06:00] countries.

And right now, if you’re checking back, Vietnam is ranking on the 33rd in term of no GDP. And uh, we check with our projecting power, we now like 26. So it’s, the economics context is now changing and, um. It doesn’t make, um, so yeah, people have different concepts about different countries. When we talk about America, we talk about, uh, superpower.

We talk about, uh, like, yeah, you watched Captain America, right? It’s, it’s, it’s the kind of vibe that I want to save the world and all. Uh, when we talk about China, we talk about like, um, ancient stories. Peace. Bye. Bye. The King, and those kind of movies. And we also, uh, see China as the factory of the world.

So different concepts about different countries. And Vietnam, I want to move away completely. We are in the new chapter. We are moving off from the [00:07:00] war, and now it’s an emerging economy. And, um, Yeah, I checked, I also asked Chastity to give me 10 words to describe Vietnam back then and now, and right now, there is no longer the word about poverty reduction.

We don’t talk about that anymore. We also don’t talk about agriculture, yes, but not the most, like, dominant, um, area. Information, but more like about the technology, uh, innovation half that we are basically we are the place that is attract, uh, foreigners to come to Vietnam. And I think that there are some reason for that.

So, uh, About the economic in general, and especially for my company, my current company, we’ll talk about the entrepreneur mindset. So you might see that in Vietnam, there’s a lot of people. You meet ten people and then like seven or eight out of them, they are having their own business. They’re running a side business or something.

So we don’t mind being the owner. of our life and starting something on our own. [00:08:00] And that entrepreneurs myself actually is really nice if you applied it into, um, work context and all, because you can take, basically take ownership of the things that you are doing.

Niall: I

don’t think you’ll be able to see it on the camera.

Jessie: Yeah.

Niall: No, that’s so interesting about the entrepreneurial spirit, because that is something that you hear about Vietnam a lot, and I remember even when we first came here, it would have been nine years ago, we were up in Hanoi, and, um, What was pointed out to us as an example of the entrepreneurial spirit was there was a guy just on the side of the road with like a bucket of 10

Jessie: beers

Niall: Selling them to people walking by and I remember a friend who was with us at the time was like this is what I’m talking About like he needs to make some money So he just goes and buys some beer and he’s gonna sell them for a little bit more Like Vietnamese are full of the entrepreneurial spirit

Jessie: Yeah, I must say it’s not that difficult to start a business in Vietnam as compared, if you compare to Japan or [00:09:00] Singapore, it’s much, much harder.

So in Vietnam, a lot of people coming here to set up their new business, and also we’re talking about the mindset that we apply in basically everything we do. my, my, my friends also, the CEO of the company, he say that when he went into any interview, he say he’s going to become the CEO of the company because yeah, that’s basically the mindset that we should have when we do anything.

Niall: So what we’re still talking. We’re super friendly, super welcoming, yeah, still, until today. It’s not

Jessie: We’re talking about the thing that haven’t changed. I need to check back my memories. Um, okay. Across 20 years, we’re still talking about how friendly we are.

We’re super friendly to, uh, foreigners who come to our country, super welcoming all of them [00:10:00] going to the country. And, uh, yeah, still until today.

It is not because we are a tourism country. I don’t think that. It’s coming from the people and we value relationships and, um, to us, like we have been born and we have been raised like a relationship is the most valuable, valuable access that you have in life.

North South Difference

Niall: Well, I want to go back to when you said about you moved from the North to the South. So what were the biggest differences that you noticed? You mentioned that the dynamism here and the energy. How old were you when you moved?

Jessie: 15 years old.

Niall: Wow, so that’s a really like, you’re formative years, you’re settled in the North.

What were the biggest things you noticed in terms of the people and the different ways that things are done?

Jessie: Um, give it an example. I normally I compare the US and the UK.

Niall: Right.

Jessie: So the Northern people is more like the UK people. We think it’s a bit more subtle. [00:11:00] It has many layers of meanings when a person says something. And actually we care a lot about how other people perceive themselves. In the South, it’s more flexible.

It’s easier for us to show ourselves and show our personalities and just be ourselves better. So, um, it’s also Like, in the North, if you’re living in the neighborhood, everyone’s gonna know you, and they will know if you’re a stranger, they will know, and there are some cases that, it’s a funny story, I tell my, like, my family in the North, I say, there’s a Kay, the family, they went to holiday, and, uh, there is some thief, came over.

They just came in with a truck, like, they opened, they cut the house, they bring everything out, and nobody knows, like, all the neighbors think, oh, so another family changed, oh, so they are moving

Niall: house.

And things

Jessie: And things like that couldn’t happen. I mean, yeah, or maybe, maybe it’s because up [00:12:00] north, um, I, I was not in that kind of big cities, but that the spirit, like, um, yeah.

Niall: yeah. And what, how, see I forgot my question, don’t worry, we’ll cut this part out. Um, what was I going to ask?

Jessie: and let me go back a little bit, um, another example, a Northern people, uh, when they invite you, like, let’s have lunch with us when we have a talk, right? They say, Oh, it’s lunchtime. Let’s have lunch with us. Then we need to let them ask three times. Or, or they may say, No, I mean it, at Floundry does.

Yes, and that’s why you know. But normally when, when you finish the chat with people, Let’s at Floundry, let’s say, then the thing you should say is, Um, uh, well, I, I had my blend. And they say, No, I mean it. Let’s at Floundry. That’s where you start. So

Niall: Let’s come through. That’s the way. Um, it’s like a way

Jessie: It’s like a way of [00:13:00] greeting people. All I say if we are talking and then another people eating something I say let’s like enjoy it with us and you feel super awkward if you’re eating something and you’re not inviting other people but you need to really sense whether this is a real invitation or it’s just like yeah being polite.

Niall: really sense whether this is a real patient or just like,

Jessie: Oh right, uh, that’s the thing.

Niall: that

Jessie: Well, my, um, my cousins, who is much, much older than me, they say that there is a poem in Vietnamese that’s saying like, uh, the southern people don’t like the northern people and they’re making fun of it.

Yeah, because of the background, after the war, the northern people moved to the south and, um, there’s a, there’s a, Yeah, things happened in the past. So I’m, I was a little bit afraid. And, uh, and there I picked up my Southern accents. And actually right now I can, normally I speak to colleagues and friends in the [00:14:00] Southern accent.

So I, um, if a mom called me and I pick up with my Northern accent, it’s a totally, it’s a different person. If I picked up the phone and my friend would look at me like, what? Are you, are you my friend?

Niall: This is amazing because it’s one of these things that no matter where you go in the world, people are all the same. Right. So my dad.

His mum is from like the north of Scotland and so they have a very distinctive accent as well and they have their own language. My dad couldn’t speak that language, he just spoke English because he was born and brought up in the south, but every time he got on the phone to his mum, same thing, he’d be like, oh hello, how are you doing?

Are you okay? Did you have a good cup of tea? And he would suddenly put on this, we’d chuchter accent is how you would call it, but he’d put on this northern accent but he couldn’t even speak the language and same thing, we’d be like, dad, what? You don’t sound like that, you’ve completely changed your voice.

So it’s so funny, even like massive generation were [00:15:00] thousands and thousands of miles away and you still do the same thing.

Jessie: It used to be one of my insecurities, like, it used to be my insecurities, and there are some words, different words, like, so in, in the southern, the word, um, the bell, uh, it means that the rubber band. It’s the same word, but different meanings. And there was one time I asked my friend, do you have the rubber band?

But the word actually they hear is like, do you have a bell? And they say, why do you need a bell to, yeah, for your hair? They say, it’s normal. I know the eyelid. Cái, um, cái cng dây, they say the cng dây, dây nch. Which means the belt in the South, but it means the rubber band in the North. Well, they call them pants.

Niall: and we call them trousers in the uk. So I, I have had confusion when I’ve said to somebody about like, uh, do you have your pants? And then said it to an American and then the British PE person thought I was asking like, do they have their underwear? And I was like, no, no. I’m [00:16:00] asking like, do they have their pants?

So like can get confusing like that as well.

Jessie: that’s the thing that’s applicable for the language as well. Um, I When I compare the U. S. and the U. K., I mean it when the U. S., they say sidewalk, which means walking on the side. And the U. K. is pavement, the pavement. Um, so same for Vietnamese language. The words we are using, the southern is much more describable.

When you hear the word, even that’s the first time you hear the word, you still understand. But for northern people, we have different nouns for different things.

Niall: So, did you find that you faced any discrimination when you first came and you had a clear northern accent before you changed? Did people, uh, pick on you or were you, did you feel like people looked on you different because you were from the north?

Jessie: No, I like, it’s just in my mind it’s, so we suffer in our imagination more than in reality. I, I fear that, but then my friend was all super nice and they really [00:17:00] liked my accent back then, but, but then it’s still my insecurity. So I changed time by time, but, uh, right now, sometimes I surprise my friend when he’s speaking the Northern accent.

Niall: Well, like what you just said there about, someone told me recently, we think people care about us more than they really do. So we get like in our mind, we’re like, Oh, what do they think about us? And it’s like, most people don’t think about you, they don’t care about you, they only care about themselves. So you don’t really need to worry.

But the reason I’m asking partly is. Do you think that the, that if it was the opposite, so someone from the South went to the North, they would face discrimination or something similar? Because what I’ve heard, I remember talking to a Vietnamese friend many years ago, And I said, Oh, you know, I heard that foreigners get ripped off a lot, but I’ve actually never really experienced it in all my time.

I’ve never, I don’t, maybe I’ve been charged, you know, you probably heard of like the foreigner price that they, you may be cool and get your bike fixed and they charge you a little bit more. Maybe they have, but if they have, it’s not been enough to make me [00:18:00] like think, Oh my God, I’m being ripped off. But when I told her this and I said about,

She said, Oh no, no, no.

It’s worse if you’re from the South and you go to the North. And I’ve heard this from several friends from Saigon that one of them told me a story. They went, they were in the North and they sat down and got a bowl of pho. You know, pho is like probably 30k, maybe 40k, 25, something like that, quite low, right?

But they didn’t have a price up because they heard his accent. They said 150k for a bowl of pho. And he was like, no, no, no, I’m not paying that. And they were like, no, no, 150 K. That’s certainly had to pay. And so I’ve heard that you face more discrimination as a Vietnamese person than as a foreigner

Jessie: well, um, No, for that I didn’t experience that because maybe I was lucky enough to have him facing these kind of experience, bad experience, and also I I, I pretend sometimes I keep my Northam accent and then testing people, but they, they just like, Oh, you’re, you’re so, so nice. [00:19:00] And they just like being mesmerized with the, the other accent.

So for me personally, I don’t, or maybe they’re the younger generation. I mean, in general. So people is like talking about Gen Zs and the differences, but, uh, of Gen Zs and Millennial and other, uh, maybe boomers generation, for example. But, uh, I think we are living in a much more flatter world, um, like right now that the cultures and only exchange between countries and peoples and like, uh, so that things is maybe it happened a lot in the past, uh, but nowadays I, I may be, I’m, I believe that this better, it’s getting better and better.

Um, the same thing. So this led me to another thing about technology. Because, in the beginning, I may say, 20 years ago, people thinking English as something nice to have. And if you have English, so maybe you get [00:20:00] better job opportunities or something. But nowadays, I do believe that being English is the most, like, kids supposed to study that at school.

And then, when you are at university, when you graduated without English, you are, like, below average.

Well,

Niall: Well, I heard that you can’t graduate anymore unless you have a certain school, English school, is that true?

Jessie: anymore unless you have a certain English score. Is that true? I’m just going to check quickly. Nice.

So that is one of the most [00:21:00] thing and, and I think that health, if you look back into the concept of economics, then you see that the reason why Singapore is growing so fast is because part of the reason and because of the language and communication is much more easier when they’re speaking English. And I believe that Vietnam’s, like, the strategy is pretty much going the same.

And, uh, Like two or three years ago, I asked myself the same question. I read a book about technology and I, I have the realization that technology is right at it right now. It’s, it’s going on the same path. Like there is no longer, Oh, I’m not a tech person. I’m not a high tech person anymore. You can’t get yourself out of technology.

So this is the must, and this is a language that sooner or later you need to pick up on.

Gen z

Niall: I’m not gonna lie, up until about six months ago, I don’t even think I’d heard of Gen Z. And I know as a millennial, I’d heard a lot about millennials. This is from a western perspective, [00:22:00] millennials are the worst. We spend too much money on avocado on toast and things like this, and all the world’s problems are millennials.

And I never really thought about generations before. I just, I just thought we’re all people. I didn’t really think about like generations, but now as I’m getting older and I started to realize like, Oh, this person’s 24 years old. And they have a completely different outlook on life to me, or not a completely different outlook, but a, but a very different outlook.

Especially for me, I noticed, you know, when I was brought up, there was, there were homosexuals, but that was banned. You couldn’t get married. Most people didn’t come out. It was scandalous. If you were bisexual, that was even stranger because nobody admitted to being bisexual. But now 24 year olds have been brought up in this world of sexuality as a spectrum.

LGBTQ plus is way more accepted. So these are all great things, but it’s made me realize that they’ve been brought up in, or they’re brought into like a completely different world to what I was brought into. And then we can go into all the financial aspects and not how about they have to [00:23:00] pay for university and all of these things as well.

So Gen Z are obviously, you know, They’re kind of like, I feel like the in thing right now, maybe, and you can talk more about that from marketing, because everyone wants to market to Gen Z, that’s all I hear about. Like, how do we market to Gen Z? How do we reach out to them? What does that mean in Vietnam?

Is it the same worldwide? Is, because I do hear about Gen Z in Vietnam as well, which are the younger generation, obviously. Is there a Gen Z in Vietnam? Are they the same as the Gen Z in the West? And how is the new younger generation of Vietnamese different to the one before them?

Jessie: I can always speak on that with my personal perspective again.

Niall: Are you Gen Z?

Jessie: Yes, I’m Gen Z. Gen Z.

Niall: I haven’t asked your age yet. So I didn’t know what you, I presumed you were 97. My God, I’m so

Jessie: Well, uh, there are some things I, yeah, with my observation, I made things Gen Z. 99 nowadays is, so I got the [00:24:00] feedback from my previous manager that, Gen Z is so strange. I don’t understand. Your guys are so strange. Um, so in work context, so in the work context, um, we are less hierarchy.

So to me personally, I don’t buy in with the concept of boss and employees and staff in general. To me, everyone is colleague. And that has led to a thing that I respect my team as my colleague. I have people from my team who are 2003? Yeah, much younger than me as well. But

Niall: I love, sorry, just quickly. You said 2003 and I’m doing the maths. I’m like, they must be like, that’s like 16 years old. And I’m like, holy shit, that’s 21 years old.

Jessie: 21 years old.

Niall: I’m so old, as I said, but on you go, continue.

Jessie: 21 years old. Yep, yep, yep. So, uh, that is, but [00:25:00] I’ve, I try my best to value them as not as because they’re younger or older, but seeing them at who they are. And also the same thing go with my, uh, line manager as well.

So sometime I, I positioning him or her as, uh, a colleague where I can, like, directly share our thoughts and also this kind of thing with, if you mentioned about, um, hierarchy then in Japan or Korea, that thing is still a dominant, a dominated, like, kind of mindset when you go to corporate. But in Vietnam, I think that’s the new concept that we have to pick up on.

And, um, we care a lot more about equality. Uh, in my mind, I’m not sure if the chances in Europe are there. European side is much more different, but, um, moving to Asian side, uh, because the word is flatter right now, so we are picking up this kind of culture much, much faster, and, uh, so I may say that Gen Z is closer to the [00:26:00] Western culture, and at the same time, we are empowering ourselves with our culture as well, trying to find ourselves, defining our brand.

So I don’t see a lot of people in millennial and baby boomer generation talking a lot about themselves. They’re more talking about the communities or the bigger people. Like the bigger group and they seeing them as part of the bigger group and always that way and it’s feel a bit Weird if you are talking about ourself, but for Gen Z’s, yes, we are supposed to Define our personality and each person is very much different

Niall: very much different. I’ve noticed as a elder millennial, I almost feel like a boomer when I say things like this, but what I’ve noticed from Gen Z is they love labels.

They love to label themselves. They have to have like something that defines them. And I feel like my generation, we didn’t need that. We will just, I mean, we did to a way like we, my friends all followed Oasis. [00:27:00] We loved indie music, but we never really defined ourselves like that, but maybe we did. Maybe I’m just not remembering, I do.

I have noticed it. Every Gen Z person needs an individual label, like they’re something different. But what I was going to ask though is, is that not a huge clash of cultures in an Asian country like Vietnam or Korea or Japan? Because they are very hierarchical, and I know this from the business that I do here as well.

I’m working with companies that, one thing I was told recently is, and probably not the Gen Z generation, maybe the elder generation, they might be like say the director of marketing. Which sounds like a big fancy title, but they have no decision making abilities because the hierarchical structure of the past goes that their manager is the big boss.

So this person seems like they’re the boss, but they actually don’t have any decision making power. And once, what somebody told me recently was, you might have a meeting where everyone will be like, yep, yep, no, that’s a good idea. Yep, yep, yep. And then after the meeting, they’ll be like, oh, that was a [00:28:00] terrible idea.

That’s never going to work. But they’ll never tell their manager that it was a bad idea because those structures are so ingrained in, in a lot of Asian cultures that you basically have to do what your elders tell you. So you think that’s changing with Gen Z, but do you think it’s changing like immediately?

Because I feel like that that’s going to take a couple of generations for that kind of hierarchical structure and especially patriarchal as well because it’s very much male dominated, right? Like you’ve got to do what your elder male says. I still feel like that’s going to take a couple of generations to change or do you think that’s changing already,

Jessie: I think it’s changed already. And, um, so let me give an example. Uh, in my previous company, we were talking about, um, we have, uh, designers, uh, discussing with the founder of the company about, no, I don’t think that we should using this font for our website because it’s, it doesn’t look like up to the standard.

And then the founder say, but we’re at the point we need to compromise because the timeline is very worse and I can’t wait anymore. [00:29:00] And then. The designer just say, I’m sorry, but you need to listen to me. And this is the kind of thing that I would never compromise as, yeah, out my work. But this, this kind of story doesn’t happen a lot in, um, like kind of previous, uh, older generations culture.

And, uh, and then, uh, our founder, he’s 70 something already. Yes, but he’s very much respect that. And he said, okay, so we try the best to deliver the best quality within the timeframe. And another time, there is the time that the website is not going well. And then he write, uh, he wrote, uh, an email with the yellow background, highlight, uh, yellow background, red Kevlo text, take it down now in the weekend.

Yeah. And then. On Monday, he wrote, uh, he printed out a paper, same treatment of text, uh, [00:30:00] with, yeah, yellow highlighted and red text. Pavlov says, sorry, and he put it on her desk. And, and that’s how a seven, 70 years old, um, like business man, business owners treat his employee. And I learned from that. So I think that this is not something that we, it’s just that in our generation, In the, in the back of our head, we believe that it’s, oh, it’s supposed to be that way, but actually people, everyone can change and adapt in that way.

And I might not say which one is better, because if we go back to the concept of, uh, military and, yeah, like, curriculum, so that’s, actually that helps when we need, when it enters a situation where we need to respect people who make the decision. Now, think that’s

Niall: now, do you think that’s changed because, like you mentioned, the world is flatter, so I assume you don’t mean the world is a flat earth, I assume that’s not what you think. You mean like it’s more homogenous, right, so like we all think the same [00:31:00] things? Because the question I want to ask is,

I’ve

worked in the public school system here, I know what it’s like, it’s 50 children, sometimes 50 full children in a class, they’re not getting taught.

so much like creativity, they’re not getting taught lateral thinking, they’re not getting taught about international studies, they’re getting taught the subjects really well like math, science, English, um, so it’s not like the most expansive education from what I can see, and that’s not changed because I was teaching in public school like a year ago.

So the public education here has not changed, and the schools are massive, you know, I’ve been in a classroom, 54 students in one classroom, and then there’ll be 10 classrooms on the one floor, and then 5 floors, so you’re like, that, that’s, I can’t even do the math, it’s like 5, 2, 500 children or something like that, and then across the road there’ll be another school like right next door, so there’s Thousands and thousands of young Vietnamese all going through this education.

How do they then come out with this Gen Z mindset and this non hierarchical, if that’s a word, non [00:32:00] hierarchical thinking? Because they’re not being taught it in school.

Jessie: No, that’s a tough question. I haven’t think about that.

I don’t think I can answer the question because actually the non-hierarchical thing is more applicable for me, myself and, uh, with my observation, with my experience, my own experience. So I’m not sure I, I’m really not sure about that. YouTube maybe,

Niall: Well, because the world is flatter, like you say, they’re more exposed to social media. And I think one of the big differences about Vietnam is, and maybe where there’s a misconception from overseas, is it’s a one party government or communist country, but it’s not like other countries like China, there’s not freedom, there’s not massive freedom, um, what’s the one, I’m trying to make sure I say the right thing here so I don’t say the wrong thing, um, because there is freedom of speech, speech is not perfect, I’m trying to think what to say, don’t worry this will all get cut, um, Vietnam is still a very free [00:33:00] country and, and very innovative and moving forward quickly, so I just wonder. Where are Gen Z learning these new traits? And that’s what goes back to my point, I just wonder if it will happen quick enough. But is it exposure to companies, these western companies that are coming in with a different type of mindset and different owners?

Jessie: don’t think that we are adopting this with the Western mindset. Actually, we are exposed to these cultures more, and we are exposed to the world much more than ever before. And we learned, we get things from outside, but actually we reflect back to ourselves as well, and only things that is true to ourselves that can sustain.

So, uh, eventually, regardless of how much information you get from outside, it will come back to the true nature of human beings, and we need to ask ourselves the same thing. So I have a concept for my own about learning. I call it, uh, blinding flashes of the obvious, [00:34:00] which mean that, um, Normally, you don’t learn things from outside.

You just get information from outside. But, the thing that you really learn is from the obvious. And, and some of the obvious is, like, in your blind spot that you can’t see that. And, uh, that’s helped a lot. So, that is the thing where it’s going to the point where we talked about personal branding, and we talked about we are trying to labeling ourselves and defining ourselves.

So, isn’t that the question that, uh, The other generation also ask themselves as well, but the situation, I might say that the context of Vietnam, um, many years ago where we need to struggle with, uh, the economic situations and, uh, earning, uh, like, try to make a living, and also we don’t really have time to define the purpose of life, but for younger generation right now, we actually, we have been raised up in the environment, which is, like, [00:35:00] enough for them to think back and define that, uh, Why do I exist here and what do I want to do with our life and also, I may say that it’s come from within.

Yeah.

Niall: this is what’s exciting about the massive economic change in Vietnam because Once you don’t have to worry about a roof over your head and where your next meal is going to come from, and you can start to have a little bit more money to plan for the future, then you can start to have these more kind of existential questions, I guess, in, in your life. Now, what we’re going to do, when we first started talking, I feel like we didn’t really get delved deep enough into, like the innovative change in Vietnam and things like that. So I’m probably going to just cut that bit out because I really like, when I like doing an episode, I like going from like the beginning.

So that’s why we went back to like, you moved to the north and the south. So probably that will be the beginning. So what now, we’ll start to ask you, we won’t go into NFQ, but I want to talk, we’re talking already about new generation. I want to talk about that change, and we’ve just talked about like the, the mindset, [00:36:00] so the, how they’re viewed in the world.

So don’t worry about what you said earlier, because you can repeat some of that and say it in a different way, because I’m probably going to scrap most of that.

Jessie: Okay. I I also don’t happy with the beginning of the conversation where, and normally that happen ’cause we are very tense in

Niall: yeah, yeah, I meant, I normally tell you that before and I forget, I normally, sometimes I will always cut out the first five, ten minutes, because it’s always the most like, the start of the conversation, so don’t worry about that, so we’ll go from that. Let me

Jessie: it getting

Niall: let me just check

Jessie: sure these microphone on? Yeah.

Niall: So you’re going to steal my microphone and my headphones and just

Jessie: [00:37:00] people hold, and,

uh,

Niall: headphones and microphone on?

Jessie: questions like, um, what are some of the beliefs that we have?

Um, or let’s say if we have a chance to speak to the word and what we want to say, or, um,

yeah, like, dig, I, I, I can feel that if we dig deeper into the point where we talk about, uh, going inside to ourself and learning ourself and all, then there may be something more to discuss. Yeah. What Because I

Niall: going to ask

Jessie: about,

Niall: like, the, the innovation

Jessie: in Vietnam and the how that has

Niall: What

question allow you

Jessie: say that? Ah, for that.

You can just simply ask, what is [00:38:00] your belief about technology? It’s a big question. Technology you can

Niall: talk, okay, we’ll see how we go. I think we’ll be able to find it. Okay. So you are a really great example of that changing generation and obviously the way you think as well and the way you act. So you’re the marketing manager at a global tech company. How did you get that position?

Technology

And this is what I think is just so amazing because People think of Vietnam as rice paddies and non Lahats and maybe that’s what your family did. I don’t know, I haven’t asked, but you’re now working for an amazing company and showcasing what Vietnam can do to the world. How did you end up here?

Jessie: Wow, this is really nice. So let’s come back to the point where we were talking about trying to label ourselves. So I already share like, I hold the belief that technology is the most, and I hold a strong belief that about the potential of technologies and also [00:39:00] I keep talking about that to people and I say, so before my background is on branding and sustainability, and I talked to my mentors, I talked to my friends that I want to do marketing for a tech company, because I believe in the technology.

Take awesomeness, the impact that technology can make and actually it’s create Abundancy for people because as human being we have eight hour day. We have limited like capacity of health and also, um, to creating value, we need a bridge, we need an enabler. And I believe that technology can help people with that.

And that is so amazing. And yes, so that’s a must for me. And then I just keep going on that path and looking and, and then I got referred to this role by, uh, by my mentor. And, uh, once I come in, I say that, so I, the question I was asked is, what is my vision and what’s my purpose? And I say, Well, I believe in creating [00:40:00] impact, and I believe that with this role I can do that.

Niall: so why do you

think that Vietnam is now a hub for innovation and technology that, again, many people, many people, and that’s not their fault because they live thousands of miles away, they probably don’t know, um, why do you think that VNAM has now become this destination for innovation and technology?

Jessie: let me bring in an example. During the COVID, the COVID 19, um, I might see that like different countries have their own team to try to think out the process of how to treat like COVID patients and all. So in the beginning, we do that very well.

We do that very well, and it’s because of our flexibility and the ability to adapt with things, and we just try, learn, test, and make new things, and, and, and that is in the mindset, uh, back to the entrepreneur [00:41:00] mindset I shared with you, so that is one thing. The second thing is I believe technology is not difficult.

So, the things that is complex and difficult is the mindset. It’s not about technology itself. Basically, you can build this mindset. anything, uh, like all the complex software, all the complex website and all, you can basically finish that within nine months or one year’s maximum. So everything is buildable and The point is about the people behind, the concept behind, the solution behind, whether it’s good enough to sustain, the idea behind whether it’s strong enough, or can we foresee, uh, the experience of people using that and can we foresee that, um, the impact that we can make with this solution.

So that is the core thing about technology and technology is just an enabler for us to doing amazing things. Um, and with that, I’m very much confident that Vietnamese is one of the best. and we are being so creative ever since [00:42:00] back when in the time that of the war, so I don’t want to bring back all the kind of information, but if you visit Gucci, you know that how creative we are.

thought you

Niall: you said Gucci, like the fashion house. And I was like, Oh, wait, did Vietnamese people design

Jessie: Gucci? No, no, no.

Niall: You’re talking about the, the way they designed some weapons that were very, uh, innovative and grotesque as well at the same time, but we won’t go into that too much, but that’s really interesting.

So you think that going back, that entrepreneurial mindset, even if you’re not an entrepreneur, has led to this type of, uh, innovation in Vietnam. So do you think, how do you think Vietnam compares then to other Southeast Asian countries like the Philippines? I would say they’re almost in a similar or maybe a little bit more further ahead in terms of country’s development than Vietnam.

What makes Vietnam different to these kind of countries that sets them up, I think, really well that makes a lot of people want to do business here? And just, I’m answering my own question here, which I hate when interviewers do that and I hate when I do that, [00:43:00] but we, I do a lot of work with podcasts for and the thing I hear all the time is businesses.

Do set up in Vietnam because there are lower labor costs, right? That’s just a fact, right? But there are other countries with similar labor costs that don’t have the same skills as Vietnamese people. And the reason companies come here is not just the lower labor costs. It’s because of the Vietnamese workforce.

Jessie: workforce. Exactly, exactly. I, I, I hate to mention, actually I don’t use the word, I never use the word of, uh, low label cost in any of our communicating materials, and we don’t position ourselves at, we have, uh, we can provide things cheaper.

But I buy in with the concept of cost effective, uh, so it’s more about, so, It’s more about when you compare an iPhone with OPPO, for example, you may see that the definition of cost effective is when you build something and it’s sustained, it’s simple enough that building things, building simple thing is very [00:44:00] difficult, but if it’s simple enough and it’s able to sustain and deliver the value and getting into the essence of things and that is where we build things with value.

But, uh, we do it one time and it’s sustained for longer, and, and that’s the concept. And, yeah, so I try to move away from the cost effective things. And, and so far right now, I might say that, uh, Vietnam is not that cheap anymore. Um,

Niall: And I did that thing at Haiti where I answered my own question that people come to Vietnam for the, for the workforce. So I guess though to try and make my question clearer, what makes Vietnamese workforce, Vietnamese young people doing business in Vietnam different to doing business with another country where it’s a similar price point?

Jessie: We are resilient. We are receiving that trait from [00:45:00] our older generations, that we still have that kind of resilience, and at the same time, creative and adopting new things. And it’s a combination. And Vietnam, in general, is like geographically, it’s in the position where it’s very much convenient for us to adopt new culture and all.

And the fact itself that it’s the, the tourism country as well, you see a lot of expat and foreigner living in Vietnam, which make us much more, um, inclusive in, in the kind of international, uh, cultures and all. So, uh, that is, I may say that that is some of the key things.

Niall: Well, another stereotype

that people have, sorry let me rephrase that, you mentioned something about not, things not being cheap, right, or you don’t want things to come across as cheap, which though this is such a good discussion because, just because something’s cheap, I mean in my mind now if something’s cheap it means it’s poor quality.[00:46:00]

And so we don’t want Vietnam to be compared with, oh it’s cheap because that to me just means it’s poor quality, right? And I had somebody approach me recently wanting to do some work with me to help create a podcast and I’ll be really honest it was one of the rudest messages that I’ve ever received and like off the bat it was like I don’t have any money to spend but I want you to help me make my podcast so that I can make money and then I’ll pay you once I make money which is not how any business in the world runs but what annoyed me the most was he said well you know and I know you’re in Vietnam and it’s really cheap there so I assume that you’ll give me cheap prices.

I mean, anyone who pays any attention knows I just won an award for best audio producer of the year. I’m very good at what I do and my team are very good at what we do and we base our prices based on the quality of the work that we provide. And the more I thought about it, I was like, would you go into a phone shop and say, I want to buy the new iPhone, but I want it cheaper because I know it’s made in Vietnam.

Jessie: Making sense.

Niall: [00:47:00] You’d never ever do that in a million years. So it was just one of the most infuriating conversations I’ve had with somebody. And I tried two or three times to say like, I don’t want to work with you. And he kept coming back to me and I think he eventually took the hint because I was like, it’s not not going to help you work for free.

And it was just, I had to bite my tongue. I actually typed out a message to be like, I find you very rude and then I deleted it because I was like I should just not, I’ll just leave it. But just that mindset is, was crazy and I think a lot of people have that mindset about Vietnam. So how does Vietnam change that mindset?

Jessie: I, I don’t know. I mean, like for me, it’s just come naturally. So me and my friend, I, I joined, uh, an exchange in 2019.

Uh, we visit Singapore, visit Thailand, uh, top company. And we might say that, so we have some group discussions and all, we would say the only, uh, barrier at that time is, um, possibly the language. I, I might not [00:48:00] compete to Singaporean where they use English on a daily basis, but the rest, I don’t think we are that, like, we don’t position ourselves lower.

So, uh, it’s just come naturally. Yeah, it, I, it doesn’t need to be changed, but it’s just come naturally.

Niall: Well do you think that as, as the quality does increase, so for example like so much like coding and building things like now Apple does have factories here, Adidas have factories here, they create that. These material objects that aren’t cheap to buy and they’re not cheaply made and so people might eventually start to So one of the best examples I can think of is Nguyen Coffee Supply in New York, right?

So I’ve interviewed Sarah before, a few years ago. She’s the founder of this company. She’s Vietnamese American, born in America. And she is on a mission to change the way people perceive Vietnamese coffee because This, and Vietnamese coffee is a great example. So Robusta is [00:49:00] the main type of coffee, the Vietnamese, that is grown and sold from Vietnam because it’s cheaper and it’s higher yield, which because the coffee is cheaper and it’s higher yield, the coffee is not as good.

So it’s mostly used for instant coffee and cheap brands of coffee. The good stuff, the Arabica, is grown in small quantities, but it has a higher price because it takes longer to grow, right? So I know a little bit about the coffee industry. So what she’s trying to do is Help and others as well. I know as well, like, like half I think are doing a lot of great work as well.

Let’s try and change that. And it’s hard for the mindset of Vietnamese farmers to be like, Hey, you can grow Robusta and you grow really quickly, but sell it cheap so you can get cash quickly. Or you could sell Arabica. It’s going to take longer to grow. So you’re going to have to wait longer, but you can sell it for higher.

That’s a really difficult choice to be like, do you want less money now or more money later when you might need money now? But they’re working to try and change that perception that Vietnamese coffee is cheap and help move it into a [00:50:00] stage where Vietnamese farmers can produce really good coffee and get paid well for

Jessie: Yep, that’s the, that’s the mindset about because I might say that if we talk about cheap price, we can’t compete China.

We can’t. That’s a factory of the worst, so. And I don’t want to position ourselves in that way. So, uh, it’s about the quality as well. And it’s the, it’s the mindset that we’re doing things at the best. Um, so there’s a story that a guy, they came into the room, and they asked a group of people, uh, of a young startup.

They say, what is your strategy to become the best, the top 20 biggest company. like, globally. Then they say, what are you talking 20 people and we don’t even earn a billion a year, then then why are you asking these kind of questions? And the guy say, no, but Facebook start with that small group of people, Microsoft start with [00:51:00] that small group of people, and they started with, they don’t even have enough money to pay for everyone, and they pay by share.

But that should be the mindset we start everything. and it’s linked to the point where we talk about the mindset of a CEO before we do anything. So taking ownership of the things we do and taking interest of the quality and the final impact that we create with the thing we do. And I may say that while everything that we try to please our stakeholders, we try to please our boss, there may not much.

inspiring of the work that we are doing right now in general, but we try to think about the impact that we can make with every single word that we’re writing with every single line of code that we’re doing right now and think how many people are going to use that in the future. So that’s kind of, that’s just the point where it makes difference.

Niall: I

have one final question about Gen Z to go back.

[00:52:00] stereotype for Gen Z, I read this just somebody posted this yesterday, they don’t want to work. don’t want to do anything. They’re lazy. They have a bad attitude. But everything we’ve talked about Gen Z would be the opposite. So how do you reconcile those two facts?

Which one is true? Or are they both true?

Jessie: Um, I have, I have a different belief about that. I may say that we are more purpose driven. So Gen Z is more purpose driven. And it de So when Going to the point of purpose, then it’s dividing people into different groups, and I might say everyone has different purpose in life.

So for those who believe that, um, I was born to enjoy this life, then they will have their own agenda. And they don’t mind speaking of their agenda, and their purpose. And for people who say, I’m born to do this thing, and this The thing that I can do the best, and I believe that I can do this much better than other people as well.

So I’m the best person to do this job. So [00:53:00] that’s another mindset. So, uh, I might say that the thing is you, you may, you may be right that we are more purpose driven and we are living for ourselves more. So we don’t mind to speak up. And, uh, that’s why you see that we are much more like straightforward as compared to the other generation that, um, Yeah, but um, it’s also because the economic situation as well.

We we were born to We have we we not much of us Um suffering from hunger on daily basis when we were young as compared to the older generations So we had more time to think about the purpose in life

Niall: I love that. That’s such an amazing way to put it. Purpose driven. I’ve not thought of that specific phrase, but I mean, I think the same thing as well. I’m like, what? Why? They don’t want to work a job for 40 years, 95, and they’ll probably get fired a year before retirement.

Like, their mindset has completely changed. So anytime I do see somebody, normally a boomer, ranting about, like, young people don’t want to work, you’re like, no, they just don’t want [00:54:00] to do the jobs that exist. They want to do different jobs. They want to do jobs that have more meaning. They want to do something that feels more valuable.

They don’t want to go work in an office and work nine to five. I mean, so for my team, like none, we don’t have set hours. Everybody just works anytime they want, when they want, just as long as they do the tasks. And that’s always been my mindset. And I remember when I, my last job, before I came to Vietnam, If I hadn’t come to Vietnam and was going to renew my contract, I was going to like push really hard to get Friday as a work from home day.

Cause this was before COVID. It was really like,

you know, crazy to ask to work from home. But what I hated, I loved that job, but what I really disliked about it was it was like 8. 30 to 5. 00 PM Monday to Friday. I’ll be honest. I mean, I’d come in, turn my computer on. I probably wouldn’t even check my emails till 10 o’clock.

By Friday, I’d checked out at lunchtime. Like I didn’t work 40 hours. But I, I won awards at that job, I like completely revolutionized the fundraising, like did [00:55:00] amazing things, so I hit all of my targets and some. in probably like half to two thirds of the hours that I was paid for and it infuriated me because I was like, I could get some of my life back here.

Like if I can work from home on a Friday, I’ll probably only work four hours, but it means I can sleep in a little bit. I can finish earlier. Like that job, I could have worked from home all day. All week. Obviously, COVID has now completely changed that, that it’s completely normal. And I know you’ve told me that a lot of your team, it’s kind of flexible hours and hot desking and it’s all changed now, which is really exciting.

So when I see somebody, normally a boomer saying young people don’t want to work, my first reaction is no, they do want to work. They just don’t want to do those jobs.

Jessie: Yeah. If they want to work on something like they really want to, and the same thing that we are doing. Right now, are we working or not?

That’s the concept. That’s the question. Are we working or not?

Niall: Not really, I don’t get paid for this.

Jessie: it.

Niall: But it helps my personal brand. Which I have realized, you brought that up and I’m like, I do think about things like that. Like, what’s my personal brand? I don’t really do any work about [00:56:00] it, but I think about it.

Jessie: it.

personal brand, right? So we’re going back to that, uh, to that keyword.

Do you have a question here or we are going free flow? No. What’s personal brand?

Niall: What’s your personal brand?

Jessie: belief. I’m, I’m not sure because the brand, the brand exists, even with or without you building it or not. You’re creating a logo or not, you’re creating a system or not, the brand still exists.

Because the brand is the perception of how other people will see, uh, how people will talk about you when you’re not in the room. Um, It’s about how people will feel about you and what people are going to expect when you’re going to show up.

Niall: I heard as well, personal brand is just another word for reputation. What’s your reputation?[00:57:00]

Jessie: reputation? Yeah, reputation is the brand that we are showing to the world and, uh, the reputation goes beyond us. Like, before we go, then, um, Yeah, but, uh, I might not say that it’s a little bit different, uh, so, you, yeah, it’s just about words and all, we can cut the part off, I just, uh, don’t take it clear enough.

Um, we start again about the question about reputation, right?

Niall: Yeah, yeah, on

Jessie: No, it’s just, I mean, the brand is more about what we believe, how we communicate our belief to the world, and how we make that communication consistent by time by time. And it’s not about, it’s not about creating a beautiful picture outside and making, try to convince people to buy in the concept, but it’s about, [00:58:00] Consistency and, uh, Brand experts is not about the person who can, is there or not, the person who can put in magic and things and beautify things.

No, they help you tell your own story in a way that is much more compelling. And normally we don’t really well aware of our brand that much. So the brand expert is helping you to bring out the best accents of yourself. Uh, same with business as well, so branding is not we try to bling bling thing, we try to not talking things that people want to hear, but more like we bring ourselves, we bring the true values out to the world and, uh, by that people will perceive ourselves the way that we want to.

We also perceive ourselves in that way. So, I hold the belief, I, I’m an, I’m an atheist, I, I don’t, yeah, I don’t have, uh, special belief, but it’s all belief in one thing, it’s about kindness. Uh, I think [00:59:00] I wrote, I shared an article lately about kindness, and there are three kinds of kindness. The first kind is, please, thank you, you’re welcome, and let me help you, that’s the first kind of kindness, it’s the courtesy, it’s the basic, um, kindness.

things that we do to create, to communicate, to create relationships in general. The second layer of kindness is about dignity. It’s about, um, the kindness where I can truly see people at who they are and, um, seeing that every people in the room, including me and you, we have story to be told. We have our inner perception of life and, uh, we have dreams to be realized.

And seeing that in the people is about compassionate. It’s about seeing people with who they are and without judgment. [01:00:00] And the third layer of kindness is about Where you go in things beyond yourself, where you’re doing things, uh, not for, uh, seeking for short term benefits. Um, it’s about, uh, like the examples when we do charity, we do things that sustain, when we do things that we are, um, creating values and impact without compromising the current values of a person.

So, that’s It’s one of my core beliefs, and I do believe that kindness, if we treat it the right way, not as a strategy, but as a way of life, then, yeah, this world should become better and life should become better.

Niall: We’re talking about life becoming better. One of your passions you mentioned was sustainability.

Jessie: sustainability, and

Niall: and how you want to help impact on the younger generation and future generations. What do you see as the future of Vietnam and [01:01:00] especially when it comes to sustainability? Because this country, I feel like, has a massive, uh, one of my favorite words to describe Vietnam is juxtaposition.

It’s like two different things at the exact same time, so there’s so many amazing Things going on here in terms of sustainability. But then on the way here, I drive down the My Cheetah highway and you just see plastic trash everywhere because people just throw it out of the car window. So what do you see for the future of Vietnam in terms of that?

Jessie: We have a long way to go.

Niall: I like that. I like your honesty on that. Not like, yeah, no, we’re good. We’re good. No, we

Jessie: I might say we have a long way to go because we are moving out from, um, the not so good situation of economics, uh, change, uh, not, not so long ago. So, uh, yes, we have a long way to go, but I don’t see much different.

Um, and I may say that we will take a lot that long as compared to other country. Previously, because, [01:02:00] uh, right now we have the chance to be exposed to the word and it be exposed to, uh, different mindset and eventually people will come back to themselves and asking the right question once they are settled with their, uh, basic needs, like daily basic needs, then that’s where the people keep asking themselves the question about, uh, what is the real meaning of life and the impact that they’re doing.

And, um, last thing is just, um, And a small, very small example of life, and I’m not a plastic hater, even though I say I’m much more into sustainability and all, but I’m not a plastic hater, and the message is just, we don’t use plastic if we don’t need to, and that’s it. Um, but that, I might say, yeah, we are on the way, and, uh, it eventually is about the final values that we delivered.

Niall: Well, I love what you said about, it’s gonna, VNames, things are happening faster, and that’s my hope as well, because when I [01:03:00] see all that plastic trash as an example, I’m like, I’m I think I know the way Vietnam works. I think I do anyway. And one day I might drive down that street and it’s just going to have gone overnight because Vietnam will make it happen.

They’ll mobilize like 200 young students or something, but right tonight, we’re picking up all that trash and it will be gone. And I think that’s one of the exciting things I love about Vietnam being here for the last eight, eight, nine years is, uh, it’s catching up with the rest of the world quickly. And so that means it’s picking up a lot of good habits like technology for the and green technology as well.

And it’s replacing some of those not so good habits as well, but it’s a really exciting time as well. So what do you see as the future for Vietnam?

Jessie: Vietnam? We are still that flexible. We are still that, um, I may say that not all the time being so, so well structured and all, the, the future that I see for myself is, is the country where people is [01:04:00] holding their smile, doing the things that they are doing.

Niall: Beautiful and I have one last question that I used to ask at the end of every episode and we’re in season 11 now and I completely forgot to ask people and I was on my way here today and I was like I’ve got to ask this question. I used to ask this of every guest for the last two seasons and it’s if Vietnam was a person how would you describe it?

I’ll describe them.

Jessie: how would you describe it? Do you see it a male

Niall: do you see it as a male or a female?

Jessie: I, I don’t have a gender in my mind, but nice, nice question, nice question. More like female, because of the flexibility.

Niall: Most people have [01:05:00] said that they see it as a female. Yeah, I guess it just has feminine qualities. Even one person gave a really funny example. They’d obviously thought about it, but they were like, the outline of Vietnam is like, the curves of a female and things like that. And I was like, oh yeah, that’s pretty true as well.

Jessie: Yeah, the flexibility is as well. And I said, yeah, more like a woman.

Niall: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jessie, for joining me on this episode of a Vietnam podcast. I can’t believe we’re in season 11 now. Um, I really, really appreciate your time and your insights in this episode. It’s been fantastic. And thank you so much for tuning into this episode. I appreciate it so much.

As you heard me mention, we recently won the Best interview podcast in all of Asia, which is absolutely incredible. And that’s thanks to you tuning in. I wouldn’t have been able to do it for five years if it wasn’t for people like yourself listening and watching. It’s really just absolutely incredible. I would have given up so, so much longer ago if it wasn’t for you.

people like yourself. So thank you so, so much. Don’t forget we have a community on Patreon now. So go to [01:06:00] patreon. com forward slash Vietnam podcast and you can join in there. I post episodes early. We have a private chat. Uh, I’ll invite you to special events that we do here in Saigon or we’re going to try and do some stuff online.

Eventually I’m going to get around to it. I promise. And obviously make sure to do all that stuff. Turn on the notifications, follow, subscribe from wherever you are. I’m the best. best thing that you can do for me right now is please if you know anyone that also has a passion about Vietnam, wants to learn more about this amazing country, please share this episode with them and I will be eternally grateful.

So thank you so much Jessie for joining us and thank you for tuning in. Cheers!

Jessie: Thank you.